Politics: 2020 Dem POTUS candidate catch all discussion thread

uafanataum

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I have never heard a libertarian refer to themselves as a “centrist”. I have only heard left leaning people call themselves “centrist”. Here is a newsflash for you, they are not.
Depends on your definition of left. People seem to have a hard time deciding where the right ends and the left begins. As everyone in Alabama knows, Alabama is the center if the world and anyone west of Alabama is "the west" and anyone east of Alabama is "the east". However those crazy Louisianans disagree and think that Alabama is the east instead of the center.
 

rgw

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In most of those political identification tests I've taken I qualify as a "left libertarian"



Ultimately libertarianism in the United States is almost wholly expressed from "the right" and comes down to the primacy of private property ownership and weird "my law goes in my castle" types.
 

twofbyc

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I don't think Clinton was a socialist or offering socialism. She's part of the problem. She's was a market-tested candidate backed by the financial sector who had a poor track record on minority rights, police state, and social welfare. She was the wife of the president who signed the awful welfare reforms and NAFTA and arguably her voting record was even more right leaning than Bill's. There is a reason why she lost supposed "blue bloc" midwestern states in 2016. So long as our "left" in this country is such a meek patsy to the financial/industrial elite, our fall into the excesses of right-wing extremism is all but assured.
This times 1000. Corporatist and socialist ideologies are not 100% mutually exclusive to each other, but it’s practically impossible for them to coexist in a politician. She and Bill have been avowed corporatists since 1992.


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twofbyc

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Isn’t it sexist to accuse a man of sexism because he’s running against a woman?
If it’s sexist to do that, then isn’t the reverse automatically true?
Oh, wait, it’s the “alternative facts” bimbo - never mind.


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twofbyc

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I don’t care what my wife’s job might be, if she publicly babbled nonsense like that, it would have to be her job or me. Not that I couldn’t handle my personal embarrassment, but that I couldn’t continually handle the embarrassment I felt for her.


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Crimson1967

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If Biden runs, will she jump on him for being the only straight white Christian man in the race?


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rgw

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DNP doesn't really have many quality men candidates. Bernie is the only one in my opinion and I think he's battling with:

A) He realizes it will be harder this time because he'd be the most recognizable commodity and open to constant attacks
B) Since he'll be getting constantly attacked it will weaken his strength which is sticking to his ideological underpinnings
C) There are candidates such as Warren that seek some of his aims but he doesn't know if he can trust them to be earnest to M4A and other SocDem type concerns

I think he ends up running but I think he's trying to find any reason not to and allow a younger generation to take his mantle from 2016's election cycle (which has happened to a significant degree, especially in the house of representatives). The problem is that Warren is ultimately just a regulation wonk and I don't really trust her rigor in pursue agendas outside of that scope. I 100% agree with her assessment that financial sector deregulation has been a significant factor in the ills of this country. It is not the only one though and this is where I worry Warren's academia econ prof blinders will hurt her and her constituency.


There is another factor too. A lot of voters make their pick on very banal reasons. I think some of Bernie's appeal with millennials was that he was like grandpa before his brain got rotted out by Fox News. He tells it like it is and he's passionate about what he believes and seems to care about you and others. Frankly, Obama's re-election almost totally hinged on his likability factor because it was clear that his original campaign of CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN was dead and gone. Elizabeth Warren just doesn't feel like a President. When's the last time - if ever - a person packaged basically as an academic win a presidency? I think she's a perfectly fine senator but I have my doubts about her charisma.
 

twofbyc

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DNP doesn't really have many quality men candidates. Bernie is the only one in my opinion and I think he's battling with:

A) He realizes it will be harder this time because he'd be the most recognizable commodity and open to constant attacks
B) Since he'll be getting constantly attacked it will weaken his strength which is sticking to his ideological underpinnings
C) There are candidates such as Warren that seek some of his aims but he doesn't know if he can trust them to be earnest to M4A and other SocDem type concerns

I think he ends up running but I think he's trying to find any reason not to and allow a younger generation to take his mantle from 2016's election cycle (which has happened to a significant degree, especially in the house of representatives). The problem is that Warren is ultimately just a regulation wonk and I don't really trust her rigor in pursue agendas outside of that scope. I 100% agree with her assessment that financial sector deregulation has been a significant factor in the ills of this country. It is not the only one though and this is where I worry Warren's academia econ prof blinders will hurt her and her constituency.


There is another factor too. A lot of voters make their pick on very banal reasons. I think some of Bernie's appeal with millennials was that he was like grandpa before his brain got rotted out by Fox News. He tells it like it is and he's passionate about what he believes and seems to care about you and others. Frankly, Obama's re-election almost totally hinged on his likability factor because it was clear that his original campaign of CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN was dead and gone. Elizabeth Warren just doesn't feel like a President. When's the last time - if ever - a person packaged basically as an academic win a presidency? I think she's a perfectly fine senator but I have my doubts about her charisma.
It’s going to be interesting to see who the DNC ultimately settles on, and I think it’s Harris.
Makes me wanna puke, but that’s what I see from here.
I think Bernie is looking over the current candidates and muttering profanities to himself. He doesn’t want to run, has serious (legitimate) concerns that the DNC would “allow” him to win if he chose to do so, but doesn’t see anyone (outside of TG and he knows she’s a non starter) he can really get behind.
He might (slim chance at this point) jump on Beto’s bandwagon but it definitely wouldn’t be wholehearted because of policy differences, and we saw via his lackluster endorsement of Clinton that if he ain’t all in, it shows. He can’t halfway support anyone and get away with it.
Harris will get the corporate backing and that’s a requirement for the DNC (no matter what they say). And that’s gonna be a huge problem just like in 2016, one they can’t rely on being overcome by Trump’s lunacy.
I just hope Trump is either under indictment, in jail or has resigned by then.
Gonna be interesting the next few months, but I’ve added antacids to the diet and laying off the popcorn for now (I’ll renege if Trump gets indicted/impeached/resigns).


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rgw

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Corey Booker and Kamala Harris are lame attempts to rekindle the circumstances that allowed them to put a likable face on Clinton/Blair 1990s third-way centrism. I don't think it will work this time. It is telling when those from the right trumpet your virtues. If there is anything I can say about my generation is they are polarized. Centrism was what their parents did to get us into this uninviting mess that we're gonna live in and raise our children. Some put on the red hat and become right reactionaries but it seems like in general my generation skews left and repudiates liberal centrism.
 
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twofbyc

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Corey Booker and Kamala Harris are lame attempts to rekindle the circumstances that allowed them to put a likable face on Clinton/Blair 1990s third-way centrism. I don't think it will work this time. It is telling when those from the right trumpet your virtues. If there is anything I can say about my generation is they are polarized. Centrism was what their parents did to get us into this uninviting mess that we're gonna live in and raise our children. Some put on the red hat and become right reactionaries but it seems like in general my generation skews left and repudiates liberal centrism.
Well call me unconvinced that the Dems will allow a non corporatist nominee. The DNC ain’t left and aren’t showing meaningful signs they’re heading that way (AOC notwithstanding). I don’t see them getting behind Warren and on balance, she’s the “leftiest” of them all.
There is a growing faction in the party to move it left, but I don’t think it’ll happen between now and the primaries. This is what Bernie was hoping to do, get more leftward indies to go Dem and change the party; it seems to have gotten traction but I don’t think it’s enough for 2020.


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rgw

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Yup, that is why I think this general election will not go how we'd like it exactly (Trump gone) but it will probably be the final ass-kicking to cleanse the party of all the centrist weights holding it back from broad electoral success.
 

GrayTide

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Yup, that is why I think this general election will not go how we'd like it exactly (Trump gone) but it will probably be the final ass-kicking to cleanse the party of all the centrist weights holding it back from broad electoral success.
Is the centrist political movement's future dead in the water? IIRC, I read somewhere that the moderates, who I assume would be considered centrists, represented nearly 50% of the American voters. Does that mean that the largest percentage of voters have no party or candidate who would represent their base? Maybe I no longer know what constitutes a moderate's view.
 

rgw

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Well I'd argue that the American political center is actually too far to the right and ultimately that is the problem. The centrist wing of the DNP is part of the problem because it is slowly pulling the political narrative more to the right by the decade. I tend to believe that more people are going to become "radicalized" as the prosperity of the American middle class continues to decline as it has for nearly 40 years.
 

twofbyc

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Is the centrist political movement's future dead in the water? IIRC, I read somewhere that the moderates, who I assume would be considered centrists, represented nearly 50% of the American voters. Does that mean that the largest percentage of voters have no party or candidate who would represent their base? Maybe I no longer know what constitutes a moderate's view.
Descriptions of right, left and center are seemingly fluid.
I don’t necessarily think, for example, being “corporatist” is a centrist ideology; I’ve firmly believed that is precisely what they (the “right”) want you to believe.
You can value the welfare of the population over the profits of the corporations and still be a “centrist”, IMO.


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NationalTitles17

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May 25, 2003
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Is the centrist political movement's future dead in the water? IIRC, I read somewhere that the moderates, who I assume would be considered centrists, represented nearly 50% of the American voters. Does that mean that the largest percentage of voters have no party or candidate who would represent their base? Maybe I no longer know what constitutes a moderate's view.
The left wing is to the dem party what the right wing is to the rep party. And they more and more want to screw the middle 50% or so, but don't have the power yet to do it. The dems have a hedge against it in the superdelegates while the reps never have and that's how Trump made it through.

The left is dreaming if they think they will have broad appeal beyond those already on the left and those who would vote for the local garbage collector over Trump.

This is also another indication that as both the right and the left hyperpolarize to their respective ends that another party will be needed for most people unless most people can wrestle back control from the nuts on either side.
 

92tide

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The left wing is to the dem party what the right wing is to the rep party. And they more and more want to screw the middle 50% or so, but don't have the power yet to do it. The dems have a hedge against it in the superdelegates while the reps never have and that's how Trump made it through.

The left is dreaming if they think they will have broad appeal beyond those already on the left and those who would vote for the local garbage collector over Trump.

This is also another indication that as both the right and the left hyperpolarize to their respective ends that another party will be needed for most people unless most people can wrestle back control from the nuts on either side.
i have to say as one of those 50% who is dependent on the success of a small business, has a daughter with a congenital health defect, and who's wife is the c.e.o. of that business, a lot the things they are talking about speak to us.
 

GrayTide

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This is why when some posters on here talk about the Libertarian Party it is always about throwing away a vote since the Libertarian candidate has no chance. I remember Ross Perot, Ralph Nader, Jill Stein, and Gary Johnson as all third party candidates. They may have had some good issues and ideas, but came across as kooks since none of them had any real support. We have discussed the need for a third party in this country, but until a third party can gain recognition by putting up nationally known and respected candidates, it can only be useful in taking votes away from the Republican and Democrat candidates.

I do understand currently, that as a group, the moderates have to
make a choice as to which party checks most of their boxes. I also agree that most moderates are right leaning. I grew up in the South when it was eschewing the southern Democrats in favor of the GOP. The liberal wing of the Democrat Party gained control and lost the South and more moderate Democrats forever.
 
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NationalTitles17

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i have to say as one of those 50% who is dependent on the success of a small business, has a daughter with a congenital health defect, and who's wife is the c.e.o. of that business, a lot the things they are talking about speak to us.
I get it. I do. I support at least tacitly some of their policies, believe it or not (or they at least sound appealing), but the devil is in the details. So far few of those, if any. How to pay for it without ballooning the deficit to unsustainable levels? What taxes on whom? How will those taxes be offset by other direct and indirect savings? Will these be presented with realistic numbers or will we continue to see no numbers at all or will they pull numbers out of their hind quarters?

Frankly, I'd love to have all my student loans disappear and medicare for all would be a benefit for me more than likely even with new taxes on me to cover it. I would want choice to join in or not for everyone who can afford it or else it's a nonstarter for me and most other people. (to think I was dead set against the ACA as passed even though I supported some central ideas of it)

So I'm not saying they don't have ideas, but their extremism in some of those ideas (lack of choice, unrealistic money numbers, etc;...) are a huge problem for most people.

We shall see, but promising everything at once without any realistic way to pay for any of it is not a good start.
 

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