Alabama QB competition article

[KrAzY3]

that the plays Daboll was calling for Jalen and Tua were basically the same

I see a problem with that, you don't?

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I see a problem with that, you don't?

And this was a limitation of Daboll. He was all NFL and nothing else. Didn't have the ability to adapt, heck or even tweek his offense based on personnel. That's a coaching problem.

 

[gtgilbert]

I see a problem with that, you don't?

nope - not when considering the talent that was out there at WR and RB all of whom came to 'bama with the expectation of playing a certain style of offense. The offense should be designed to the capabilties or the entire team, not just one player (the QB). Even with that, Daboll still relied a good bit on the RPO plays with IZR/OZR concepts that are very much suited to Jalen. The issue was Jalen took the R instead of the P way to often (and in fact teams knew exactly how to bait him into that read), and also not only that, but with the R, more often than not, called his own number. That's why Jalen's stats were still what they were, and the frustration was there with the WR and RB units. The pass routes were also there that could have very much suited Jalen. There were plenty of routes that were safer, underneath routes that developed quickly. For whatever reason, pulling the trigger got to be slower and slower this year.

And this was a limitation of Daboll. He was all NFL and nothing else. Didn't have the ability to adapt, heck or even tweek his offense based on personnel. That's a coaching problem.

I just don't see that as true either, considering above and how daboll still kept a lot of RPO and IZR/OZR plays in the book that are NOT NFL style plays at all. The plays were there for Jalen; he just made different choices in the reads he made resulting in very different results on plays. The only plays that we really took out of the playbook from 16 to 17 was the jet sweep, which toward the and of 16 had become less and less effective and we didn't really have the right type of WR to run it (that was a kenyon drake and adarius stewart speciality, and we didn't have that type of player in 17 especially with Jacobs hurt most of the year - Ridley did it some in 16 but it clearly wasn't really his thing), and the WR bubble screen, which had not been effective against better competition either because even though Jalen's arm is plenty strong, his release is to slow to get the ball out there quickly enough for the play to work well. Those were also more effective in 16 with Stewart because he blocked like he wanted to hurt somebody - we didn't have that type of WR in 17 either. Those changes were certainly based on available personnel and what they could collectively execute.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

nope - not when considering the talent that was out there at WR and RB all of whom came to 'bama with the expectation of playing a certain style of offense. The offense should be designed to the capabilties or the entire team, not just one player (the QB). Even with that, Daboll still relied a good bit on the RPO plays with IZR/OZR concepts that are very much suited to Jalen. The issue was Jalen took the R instead of the P way to often (and in fact teams knew exactly how to bait him into that read), and also not only that, but with the R, more often than not, called his own number. That's why Jalen's stats were still what they were, and the frustration was there with the WR and RB units. The pass routes were also there that could have very much suited Jalen. There were plenty of routes that were safer, underneath routes that developed quickly. For whatever reason, pulling the trigger got to be slower and slower this year.




I just don't see that as true either, considering above and how daboll still kept a lot of RPO and IZR/OZR plays in the book that are NOT NFL style plays at all. The plays were there for Jalen; he just made different choices in the reads he made resulting in very different results on plays. The only plays that we really took out of the playbook from 16 to 17 was the jet sweep, which toward the and of 16 had become less and less effective and we didn't really have the right type of WR to run it (that was a kenyon drake and adarius stewart speciality, and we didn't have that type of player in 17 especially with Jacobs hurt most of the year - Ridley did it some in 16 but it clearly wasn't really his thing), and the WR bubble screen, which had not been effective against better competition either because even though Jalen's arm is plenty strong, his release is to slow to get the ball out there quickly enough for the play to work well. Those were also more effective in 16 with Stewart because he blocked like he wanted to hurt somebody - we didn't have that type of WR in 17 either. Those changes were certainly based on available personnel and what they could collectively execute.

I can name one thing right off the bat he could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen. Take the dang ball out of his hands and make him turn around and hand to the two stud running backs you've got rotating in and out. You know Jalen's decision making is suspect, so rather than suffering three and four yard losses on misread RPO's, how about get a sure two to three (heck maybe four) yards by handing it to D Harris? We severely misused AND underused the talent we had at RB. There are other things Daboll could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen.

 

[KrAzY3]

First off, let me be clear on this. Things worked out. Alabama won a championship, Tua came in the Georgia game and he looks like the future of the program. So I'm not trying to complain about how things turned out, at all.

But, there's a substantial amount of evidence that Daboll not only didn't use Hurts properly, but didn't even seem to know how to do so. It is all on Daboll? Absolutely not, but there were a number of issues that he exacerbated. The idea that his offense worked with another quarterback is indeed a condemnation, because he was not brought into to build an offense around Tua. That wasn't why he was hired. Things worked out, great I'm happy with that. But, if we're dissecting things you have to start with Daboll not handling the situation well. His departure says volumes about that as well, even with Tua as his guy he couldn't wait to leave the college game behind.

I've been wrong about some things, so I'm not trying to proclaim myself to be a prophet, but I also from the time Daboll was hired questioned a few things. One concerned was centered around his lack of experience with the college game, I think in retrospect he'd have to be given a bad grade on that, and that other was concerning how he was bringing Hurts along and using him. I think he failed in that regard to. Did he have a the ability to call a fairly decent pro style offense that looked pretty good with Tua in there? Absolutely, but there's not many Tua's out there and there's good reason Daboll left the NFL right away. Only problem is not every NFL team has a Tua either...

 

[Bamabuzzard]

First off, let me be clear on this. Things worked out. Alabama won a championship, Tua came in the Georgia game and he looks like the future of the program. So I'm not trying to complain about how things turned out, at all.

But, there's a substantial amount of evidence that Daboll not only didn't use Hurts properly, but didn't even seem to know how to do so. It is all on Daboll? Absolutely not, but there were a number of issues that he exacerbated. The idea that his offense worked with another quarterback is indeed a condemnation, because he was not brought into to build an offense around Tua. That wasn't why he was hired. Things worked out, great I'm happy with that. But, if we're dissecting things you have to start with Daboll not handling the situation well. His departure says volumes about that as well, even with Tua as his guy he couldn't wait to leave the college game behind.

I've been wrong about some things, so I'm not trying to proclaim myself to be a prophet, but I also from the time Daboll was hired questioned a few things. One concerned was centered around his lack of experience with the college game, I think in retrospect he'd have to be given a bad grade on that, and that other was concerning how he was bringing Hurts along and using him. I think he failed in that regard to. Did he have a the ability to call a fairly decent pro style offense that looked pretty good with Tua in there? Absolutely, but there's not many Tua's out there and there's good reason Daboll left the NFL right away. Only problem is there's not that many Tua's in the NFL either...

The funny thing is he'll have another Alabama quarterback he'll be calling plays for, AJ McCarron. LOL!

 

[gtgilbert]

I can name one thing right off the bat he could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen. Take the dang ball out of his hands and make him turn around and hand to the two stud running backs you've got rotating in and out. You know Jalen's decision making is suspect, so rather than suffering three and four yard losses on misread RPO's, how about get a sure two to three (heck maybe four) yards by handing it to D Harris? We severely misused AND underused the talent we had at RB. There are other things Daboll could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen.

I see your point and plays like that were certainly called, although perhaps he could have done more. Given his NFL roots I think he would have preferred that actually. I think Daboll was stuck between trying to do things like that, which would lead to more of a play action oriented offense (but also very likely would have put a greater emphasis on the areas jalen was weak) and still leaving in the RPOs (which I don't think he likes at all) where at least Jalen still had a chance to make a play (even if he made the wrong choice in the read a good bit)

 

[LA4Bama]

I can name one thing right off the bat he could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen. Take the dang ball out of his hands and make him turn around and hand to the two stud running backs you've got rotating in and out. You know Jalen's decision making is suspect, so rather than suffering three and four yard losses on misread RPO's, how about get a sure two to three (heck maybe four) yards by handing it to D Harris? We severely misused AND underused the talent we had at RB. There are other things Daboll could have done that would have gone a long ways in helping Jalen.

I don't think anyone doubts Daboll could have reduced the offense to make it simple for Jalen, but is that really a solution?

First off, we tried that to some extent in '16. Teams were playing run first, overloaded box defense because they wanted to force Jalen to pass. To make it effective there has to be play action passes over the crashing linebackers and safeties, and that was exactly where Jalen's problems were most manifest. To me saying the solution is just to run the ball, or just to simplify things, this amounts to saying the issue is the QB who doesn't run the offense well. That might help Jalen but it wouldn't help the team.

 

[LA4Bama]

But, there's a substantial amount of evidence that Daboll not only didn't use Hurts properly, but didn't even seem to know how to do so. It is all on Daboll? Absolutely not, but there were a number of issues that he exacerbated. The idea that his offense worked with another quarterback is indeed a condemnation, because he was not brought into to build an offense around Tua. That wasn't why he was hired. Things worked out, great I'm happy with that. But, if we're dissecting things you have to start with Daboll not handling the situation well. His departure says volumes about that as well, even with Tua as his guy he couldn't wait to leave the college game behind.

I think you have certain things upside down. You say Daboll was not brought in to build an offense around Tua. Well, by parity of reasoning he was not brought in to build an offense around Jalen either. He was hired to build an offense around the whole team, not to tailor to one player's limitation. On the other hand, Jalen was not brought in to have an offense built around him. He was brought in to learn how to run the Alabama offense. Daboll isn't perfect, but shifting Jalen's limitations onto Daboll's shoulders has always seemed wrong to me.

 

[GrayTide]

If we are talking the blame game, let's put some on the head man. He is known to prefer a low risk, pro style offensive philosophy with reliance on his defense. I think this is correct, if not then I am sure there will plenty of disagreement.

So, why does he sign a very athletic DT QB, who obviously does not have pro style QB potential? I know the replies, well Hurts wanted to come to a program, like Alabama, to learn how to be a pro style QB. I think this is a pretty weak excuse for recruiting the kind of QB not suited to what you want to do. I have said before he was done a disservice by signing with Alabama. I understand no one could have known he would start and play as a true freshman and, I agree with KrAzY that not being redshirted might have changed Hurts's trajectory. If I am Hurts, I am looking to transfer to a program that will fit by QB abilities.

 

[LA4Bama]

If we are talking the blame game, let's put some on the head man. He is known to prefer a low risk, pro style offensive philosophy with reliance on his defense. I think this is correct, if not then I am sure there will plenty of disagreement.

So, why does he sign a very athletic DT QB, who obviously does not have pro style QB potential? I know the replies, well Hurts wanted to come to a program, like Alabama, to learn how to be a pro style QB. I think this is a pretty weak excuse for recruiting the kind of QB not suited to what you want to do. I have said before he was done a disservice by signing with Alabama. I understand no one could have known he would start and play as a true freshman and, I agree with KrAzY that not being redshirted might have changed Hurts's trajectory. If I am Hurts, I am looking to transfer to a program that will fit by QB abilities.

Hm. You have a good point. On the other hand, life is like a box of chocolates.... I'm not sure it was obvious what Jalen's limitations would be. He has a lot of great qualities. The speed of reading defenses is something not easily scouted. A similar problem happens with the jump to the NFL. You see NFL teams but all the time miss on highly regarded players because their limitation isn't exposed until the higher level competition finds it and exploits it.

 

[gtgilbert]

I think you have certain things upside down. You say Daboll was not brought in to build an offense around Tua. Well, by parity of reasoning he was not brought in to build an offense around Jalen either. He was hired to build an offense around the whole team, not to tailor to one player's limitation. On the other hand, Jalen was not brought in to have an offense built around him. He was brought in to learn how to run the Alabama offense. Daboll isn't perfect, but shifting Jalen's limitations onto Daboll's shoulders has always seemed wrong to me.

Agree with this 100% especially when looking at the level of talent across the entire team. We didn't spend the cycles to go out and recruit one of the best WR classes ever signed to have them spend so much of their time blocking for the QB instead of catching passes from him.

 

[KrAzY3]

We didn't spend the cycles to go out and recruit one of the best WR classes ever signed to have them spend so much of their time blocking for the QB instead of catching passes from him.

This actually gets into one of the issues that Daboll exacerbated. First, let's remind ourselves that there's a lot of offenses in college football now that are basically built around quick short passes, there's a reason Jalen Hurts actually was ranked pretty high in yards per completion, because there are plenty of QBs out there that get by almost exclusively on quick underneath stuff.

In 2016 Jalen Hurts threw for right at 700 more yards. Where did those yards come from if his attempts per pass went up by two yards? Well duh, they were the much talked about behind the line of scrimmage type stuff. In 2016, something like 900 of his yards came from passes behind the line of scrimmage. You can say well yeah, a lot of those weren't really passes. So? They were touches, and those guys want touches.

So how did this end up influencing things? Well, in 2016 Jalen Hurts recorded 240 completions, and in 2017 that number went way way down to only 154. Now, Hurts did not actually get worse as a passer! Truth is he got a bit better in some respects, but because Daboll just was either unwilling or unable to incorporate those underneath elements to the passing game, he just chunked them and instead went with a lot of more vertical stuff. So, Hurts average per completion went way up, but his completions went way down.

If you want to see how that looked, here's the top reception leaders from 2016: 72, 54, 45, 15. Here is 2017: 63, 17, 14, 14.
Now you know one big reason there were disgruntled players in the locker room. That's a lot of distribution that wasn't there anymore, but I have to reiterate this fact. Kiffin managed better distribution by relying more on short stuff in 2016, Hurts didn't forget how to do it, Daboll didn't call that type of stuff anymore.

To further illustrate what happened, here's the top averages per reception for the guys with at least 10 receptions:
2016: 16, 14.3, 13.2, 11.1.
2017: 19.1, 18.9, 15.3, 13.8

You see a stark contrast again. This was a problem though because guess what? Hurts ain't so good at the long stuff. So, Daboll started suffocating the offense by building around that. He took away the low hanging fruit, which worked under Kiffin, which got a lot of yards, receptions and touches, and resulted in a better offense which scored more points, and instead did... what he did. That's how you end up 3/8 against Georgia for 21 yards passing with no points in the first half. When you've taken off the training wheels, thrown them away, and realize your offense can't move the ball when the quarterback is struggling to make reads.

This is not to blame all the issues on Daboll, but I see a problem, I saw a problem throughout the season. You take away easy passes from the offense, you take touches away from play makers and, wait for it... you prevent Hurts and the offense from gaining momentum. You disengage some of the player makers and you create a chokepoint in that if Hurts can't complete the ball downfield the offense sputters. Daboll's offense scored less points against weaker competition. Is part of that Hurts fault? Yes, but Kiffin dealt with a QB every bit as limited and got more out of the offense. As I've said, Daboll exacerbated the situation.

 

[Crimson White]

This is not to blame all the issues on Daboll, but I see a problem, I saw a problem throughout the season. .

I've seen a problem for 2 years. Our offense hasn't been as productive as it can be now. I look forward to a balanced offense again. One that can take advantage of the great receivers and backs. It makes us a better team.

 

[KrAzY3]

I've seen a problem for 2 years now. I hope it's over.

That "problem" lead Alabama to two championship games. Three different offensive coordinators, three different backup QBs, that "problem" was there playing his butt off for the team while other people came and went.

 

[Crimson White]

That "problem" lead Alabama to two championship games. Three different offensive coordinators, three different backup QBs, that "problem" was there playing his butt off for the team while other people came and went.

The team led us to two championship games. Thankfully we won this last one when the offense produced in the 2nd half after failing miserably in the first half.

I get it. You're a Hurts fan. Well and good. I'm an Alabama fan. I don't care as much about the numbers on the jersey as the team, and I think we can be a better team now.

 

[LA4Bama]

This actually gets into one of the issues that Daboll exacerbated. First, let's remind ourselves that there's a lot of offenses in college football now that are basically built around quick short passes, there's a reason Jalen Hurts actually was ranked pretty high in yards per completion, because there are plenty of QBs out there that get by almost exclusively on quick underneath stuff.

In 2016 Jalen Hurts threw for right at 700 more yards. Where did those yards come from if his attempts per pass went up by two yards? Well duh, they were the much talked about behind the line of scrimmage type stuff. In 2016, something like 900 of his yards came from passes behind the line of scrimmage. You can say well yeah, a lot of those weren't really passes. So? They were touches, and those guys want touches.

So how did this end up influencing things? Well, in 2016 Jalen Hurts recorded 240 completions, and in 2017 that number went way way down to only 154. Now, Hurts did not actually get worse as a passer! Truth is he got a bit better in some respects, but because Daboll just was either unwilling or unable to incorporate those underneath elements to the passing game, he just chunked them and instead went with a lot of more vertical stuff. So, Hurts average per completion went way up, but his completions went way down.

If you want to see how that looked, here's the top reception leaders from 2016: 72, 54, 45, 15. Here is 2017: 63, 17, 14, 14.
Now you know one big reason there were disgruntled players in the locker room. That's a lot of distribution that wasn't there anymore, but I have to reiterate this fact. Kiffin managed better distribution by relying more on short stuff in 2016, Hurts didn't forget how to do it, Daboll didn't call that type of stuff anymore.

To further illustrate what happened, here's the top averages per reception for the guys with at least 10 receptions:
2016: 16, 14.3, 13.2, 11.1.
2017: 19.1, 18.9, 15.3, 13.8

You see a stark contrast again. This was a problem though because guess what? Hurts ain't so good at the long stuff. So, Daboll started suffocating the offense by building around that. He took away the low hanging fruit, which worked under Kiffin, which got a lot of yards, receptions and touches, and resulted in a better offense which scored more points, and instead did... what he did. That's how you end up 3/8 against Georgia for 21 yards passing with no points in the first half. When you've taken off the training wheels, thrown them away, and realize your offense can't move the ball when the quarterback is struggling to make reads.

This is not to blame all the issues on Daboll, but I see a problem, I saw a problem throughout the season. You take away easy passes from the offense, you take touches away from play makers and, wait for it... you prevent Hurts and the offense from gaining momentum. You disengage some of the player makers and you create a chokepoint in that if Hurts can't complete the ball downfield the offense sputters. Daboll's offense scored less points against weaker competition. Is part of that Hurts fault? Yes, but Kiffin dealt with a QB every bit as limited and got more out of the offense. As I've said, Daboll exacerbated the situation.

Man does not live on bread alone, and neither does Alabama football eat low hanging fruit alone.

You are forcing one interpretation, an interpretation you have been advocating for a very long time. I admit you have an intriguing interpretation, well informed, and worth considering. But the facts are subject to other interpretations. I have no appetite to write paragraphs, so I'm simply going to register my disagreement: the strategy to tailor an offense to the limitations of JH would have had short term benefits but for the team it was having self-destructive effects in the long term. We have actually seen that the staff did shape things around Jalen, that the players and some recruits found it unattractive, and that it had a negative effect on morale and recruitment. Daboll could have made Jalen more effective, yes, but I think the correct and general opinion is that when this was tried it was found to be both a bad team strategy and a bad long term plan and, thank goodness, in the end it was abandoned.

 

[colbysullivan]

I said it all last year: “There is no QB competition”

We won a championship. I’ll keep my head in the sand and pretend there is no competition. If we in another championship, I don’t care who the QB is.

(I’m lying...Tua is the answer. I’m just continuing my mantra from last year and it worked out. Once again, “There is no QB competition.”)

 

[GrayTide]

I said it all last year: “There is no QB competition”

We won a championship. I’ll keep my head in the sand and pretend there is no competition. If we in another championship, I don’t care who the QB is.

(I’m lying...Tua is the answer. I’m just continuing my mantra from last year and it worked out. Once again, “There is no QB completion”)

If this is true, and I happen to believe it is, then I hope Hurts transfers and finds a program where his abilities, skill set and vast game experience will be welcomed even if he has to sit out a year. He is a deserving young man of high character.

 

[KrAzY3]

I will reiterate that despite my dislike for Daboll, and my belief that Hurts was to some extent hampered by circumstances beyond his control (and yes of course I'm a Hurts fan, I don't see why any Alabama fan wouldn't be)... there really is no QB competition. This year, as long as the wheels don't fall off I think the job belongs to Tua.

If Hurts does indeed stick around in the fall, I think his role will be that of insurance and to help keep Tua healthy (since he can come into games fairly early). Perhaps Hurts could be used in a few obvious run/short yardage type situations where his strength as a runner might help. Other than that, the most I see him doing is being used to help keep Tua in line a bit. If Tua doesn't protect the ball for instance, I can see Saban yanking him to put Hurts in to teach a lesson, but I simply don't see a healthy Tua losing the starting job.