Another HS shooting - Santa Fe, TX (South of Houston)

[NationalTitles18]

Another question...kid wears a trench coat every day in the heat? Wouldn't this be a red flag? To someone?

We could really use a resource officer who looks out for stuff like this - not just to carry a weapon - but to use some pro-active initiative. Check stuff out ahead of time. Maybe prevent incidents and in the process help some of these kids who need certain attention.

The challenge to that is .... if you start targeting kids for what they wear.....the ACLU gets all kind of stressed out.

If we're going to "target" a kid for wearing a coat or long sleeves of any kind in warm weather then there's going to be a long list of kids. Truth is, many kids do this for a variety of reasons. Some reasons involve abuse by others or by self (like cutting). Some involve insecurity, others disability (like autism - they tend to like weighty things when they are stressed). Others might like it for whatever reason. And so on. AFAIK, there's been no strong association between coats or long sleeves and school shooters.

 

[Tidewater]

Hey CC and C......get a room! :biggrin2:

Or some pugil sticks.

 

[Jon]

What is different today than when I was a kid?

• Behavior modification drugs
• Social media
• Lack of God or morals being taught
• Parents working long hours so that everyone has the newest iPhone
• Kids not playing outside
• Hollywood
• Violent video games
• Spending more time in front of a computer than interacting with family

Tell me if I'm wrong about these....and if so....do they contribute to the issue.

Or we could talk about gun control and completely ignore the systemic problems we have with our kids today.

all of these things happen all over the planet and yet we only really see these issues here. Why is that?

 

[NationalTitles18]

Coming out now that the kid was bullied....geez.......why wasn't that picked up by a counselor or resourcre officer or the parents or a mentor or a big brother....so much personal relationship failure.

(or we could talk about gun control)

Santa Fe High School student claims students and coaches 'emotionally bullied' suspected shooter

This is no excuse for someone to go around shooting people at all, but it's disgusting that a kid gets picked on and school staff not only don't stop it but condone it and even participate and perhaps lead others to do it. I'm used to hearing/seeing the excuses of school personnel when they don't stop it but this behavior is inexcusable. I saw it growing up. It was wrong then. I've seen it with my and other kids. It's wrong now. Except it's more dangerous now.

 

[DzynKingRTR]

all of these things happen all over the planet and yet we only really see these issues here. Why is that?

His point was we had guns 30 years ago and this was not going on every week. Bullying has been going on for decades and this was not happening every week. So something has changed.

 

[92tide]

all of these things happen all over the planet and yet we only really see these issues here. Why is that?

and interestingly enough, former gun-runner and now president of the nra ollie north, was making the sunday rounds this a.m. blaming behavior modification drugs and violent video games.

 

[Bazza]

all of these things happen all over the planet and yet we only really see these issues here. Why is that?

I don't know. I can't speak for all over the world but I live in Florida and here we have a bunch of redneck jack wagons and it doesn't seem like anyone uses any common sense. At all.

How are things in your neck of the woods? Better than here, I imagine.

 

[Bazza]

This is no excuse for someone to go around shooting people at all, but it's disgusting that a kid gets picked on and school staff not only don't stop it but condone it and even participate and perhaps lead others to do it. I'm used to hearing/seeing the excuses of school personnel when they don't stop it but this behavior is inexcusable. I saw it growing up. It was wrong then. I've seen it with my and other kids. It's wrong now. Except it's more dangerous now.

I would LOVE to see a zero-tolerance policy for bulling at school. Mandatory expulsion. Wonder if that would help mitigate shootings...

Don't most private school have this policy in place?

 

[Bamaro]

I would LOVE to see a zero-tolerance policy for bulling at school. Mandatory expulsion. Wonder if that would help mitigate shootings...

Don't most private school have this policy in place?

That would help for school shootings but the problem is larger than that. Some of these shootings are also caused by kids getting their parents guns. Making the gun owner responsible would help also but that's just a start. The problem is complex and wont be solved with just one or two actions.
Unfortunately our legislators are paralyzed by the NRA.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I would LOVE to see a zero-tolerance policy for bulling at school. Mandatory expulsion. Wonder if that would help mitigate shootings...

Don't most private school have this policy in place?

I would think teachers are there to teach. That should include the proper way to treat your fellow humans. I am no fan of zero tolerance for most things and not here. In an ideal world parents and teachers would stop bullying by teaching life lessons in the way most appropriate to each child.

 

[NationalTitles18]

That would help for school shootings but the problem is larger than that. Some of these shootings are also caused by kids getting their parents guns. Making the gun owner responsible would help also but that's just a start. The problem is complex and wont be solved with just one or two actions.

Absolutely true. Even if we did almost everything possible we would not prevent every event. For the record, I have no problem making negligent gun owners responsible for their negligence.

 

[Bamaro]

Absolutely true. Even if we did almost everything possible we would not prevent every event. For the record, I have no problem making negligent gun owners responsible for their negligence.

We never will but we still need to do what we reasonably can. Now its hope and prayers, talk, then nothing.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Absolutely true. Even if we did almost everything possible we would not prevent every event. For the record, I have no problem making negligent gun owners responsible for their negligence.

Define negligence. You lock your guns in a safe, the members of the family know the combination, including your 18 year old son. He snaps and empties the safe and kills people. Are you negligent?

Being weird or an introvert doesn't automatically qualify you as a danger, does it?


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[NationalTitles18]

We never will but we still need to do what we reasonably can. Now its hope and prayers, talk, then nothing.

And calls for unicorns (things that will not happen and certainly not now) to go along with the thoughts and prayers. Those calls are the pro-gun control crowd's version of thoughts and prayers and is accompanied by thoughts of "one day these young people will change it and you won't have a say" or something to that effect (also accompanied by lots of condescension, which really helps get things done).

My acknowledgement that there is some futility to human nature should not be interpreted to mean I don't think we should do what we can. I do doubt that we will because of all the BS that surrounds this from "both" sides (I'm sure that will inspire a comment or two). IOW, it seems everyone is chasing unicorns or dragons or something that can't be touched when there are plenty of partial solutions we could agree on in the meantime if we didn't waste our time and energy on things we will never agree on.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Define negligence. You lock your guns in a safe, the members of the family know the combination, including your 18 year old son. He snaps and empties the safe and kills people. Are you negligent?

Being weird or an introvert doesn't automatically qualify you as a danger, does it?


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I knew defining negligence would be the next argument, but to answer directly: If you have reason to believe your son would do this then allowing him to have the combination would be negligent. If you don't have reason then no. For that matter, there is not requirement for guns to be locked away but if a reasonable person would have reason to believe that person is a danger to self or others then it is their responsibility to keep the gun they own out of that person's hands by whatever means.

If being weird or introvert made one a danger then TFNS would be a very dangerous place. Another direct answer: No. But define weird. Like to kill animals? Your weirdness is probably a warning sign. Like to talk about killing your school mates? Probably another warning sign. Worship Charles Manson? You probably have issues. But weird and introvert? No. You just described every person on the autism spectrum plus 1/4 or so of everyone else.

 

[92tide]

I knew defining negligence would be the next argument, but to answer directly: If you have reason to believe your son would do this then allowing him to have the combination would be negligent. If you don't have reason then no. For that matter, there is not requirement for guns to be locked away but if a reasonable person would have reason to believe that person is a danger to self or others then it is their responsibility to keep the gun they own out of that person's hands by whatever means.

If being weird or introvert made one a danger then TFNS would be a very dangerous place. Another direct answer: No. But define weird. Like to kill animals? Your weirdness is probably a warning sign. Like to talk about killing your school mates? Probably another warning sign. Worship Charles Manson? You probably have issues. But weird and introvert? No. You just described every person on the autism spectrum plus 1/4 or so of everyone else.

i figure it could be something almost as simple as, your child commits a (violent) crime with your gun, you are responsible.

 

[NationalTitles18]

i figure it could be something almost as simple as, your child commits a (violent) crime with your gun, you are responsible.

Tell me how that passes constitutional muster.

I can see it if you have reason to believe it may happen. I can't see it just because you own a weapon and a family members takes it to commit horrible crimes. That would be akin to leaving your car keys in a drawer and your son uses the car as a weapon. Would a reasonable person believe your son might do this? Then maybe you have some culpability. Would a reasonable person not think your son would do this beforehand? Then you are likely a victim as well.

 

[Bazza]

I would think teachers are there to teach. That should include the proper way to treat your fellow humans. I am no fan of zero tolerance for most things and not here. In an ideal world parents and teachers would stop bullying by teaching life lessons in the way most appropriate to each child.

OK...how do we do that?

Are we tracking our success against school bullying? Social media bullying?

Is it something measurable?

 

[Bazza]

We never will but we still need to do what we reasonably can. Now its hope and prayers, talk, then nothing.

Well FWIW, in this thread there has been meaningful discussion beyond just hope and prayer.

The problem IMHO has always been so much conversation, debate, and vitriol surrounding gun control....all the other things get drowned out and like you said - nothing gets done.

Let's take a look at our successes - like the one in Illinois - and draw something from it. That's one concept that is better than just talk.

Oh I realize this is a talk forum without much influence in the real world. But you tell me how we move from talk to action/results and I'm all in.

 

[NationalTitles18]

OK...how do we do that?

Are we tracking our success against school bullying? Social media bullying?

Is it something measurable?

I'm simply talking about if a parent or teacher sees it happening then they have a responsibility to stop it. Too many instead ignore, condone, or join in. I wish people would do their dadgum job. If your job is to teach life lessons then teach them. I don't believe complete statistical tracking would be feasible.