Avoid Memphis - Confederate statues coming down

crimsonaudio

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I'll just leave this here - Memphis is ~2/3 black. I'm not in a position to fully understand what these statues might make them feel like, so when my black friends tell me they'd rather not have to see these states glorifying the Confederacy, all I can do is say 'okay, then let's remove them'.
 

selmaborntidefan

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you should move to memphis and run for office.
Nah,

Memphis has the highest murder rate they’ve had in decades.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/tennessee/articles/2017-04-15/memphis-murder-rate-appears-to-be-highest-in-decades

But yeah, statues that stay in one spot are a problem that should be addressed immediately.

I say again - take them down, leave them up, I don’t care - but this is yet another example of a problem that isn’t worth the effort.

And it’s not just Memphis. This is a microcosm of the utter nonsense of humanity. I put this in the same category as people obsessed with school prayer.

“Let’s address symbols not problems and get re-elected.”
 

crimsonaudio

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“Let’s address symbols not problems and get re-elected.”
LOL, so you think the mayor and CC are capable of addressing only one thing at a time?

Never mind, you've made your mind up, don't live here, and have no idea what's actually happening here, so there's not point in debating it with you.

Memphis will be fine, no need to worry yourself over it.
 

92tide

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Nah,

Memphis has the highest murder rate they’ve had in decades.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/tennessee/articles/2017-04-15/memphis-murder-rate-appears-to-be-highest-in-decades

But yeah, statues that stay in one spot are a problem that should be addressed immediately.

I say again - take them down, leave them up, I don’t care - but this is yet another example of a problem that isn’t worth the effort.

And it’s not just Memphis. This is a microcosm of the utter nonsense of humanity. I put this in the same category as people obsessed with school prayer.

“Let’s address symbols not problems and get re-elected.”
well, the number of posts you've made about how you don't care about the issue sort of suggests you do. and as was mentioned above, it is a pretty big deal to a lot of folks regardless of whether you think so or not.
 

selmaborntidefan

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LOL, so you think the mayor and CC are capable of addressing only one thing at a time?

Never mind, you've made your mind up, don't live here, and have no idea what's actually happening here, so there's not point in debating it with you.

Memphis will be fine, no need to worry yourself over it.

You’re correct, I don’t live there.

I think they should do what they want, up or down. To get back to the OP, I’m not going to boycott Memphis one way or the other. And I’ll leave this at that.
 

day-day

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It’s been made into a big deal but hey I’m out. Go to Memphis, don’t, let them do what they want.
I think it is a big deal to a few folks and a little to no deal to most folks.

A statue of Jefferson Davis was removed from another Memphis location at the same time as the Forrest statue. There is a difference between the two in that the Forrest statue was part of a grave site and Forrest is from the area.
 

Tidewater

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I'll just leave this here - Memphis is ~2/3 black.
This policy is what you get when you have white flight from urban settings.
I'm not in a position to fully understand what these statues might make them feel like, so when my black friends tell me they'd rather not have to see these states glorifying the Confederacy, all I can do is say 'okay, then let's remove them'.
If somebody were to complain about an MLK monument calling it "a monument to plagiarism and womanizing," I'm sure most folks would view that person as being malicious or obtuse or both. Even if true, that is not why we erected monuments to his memory. We wish to remember his virtues.
I have examined hundreds of these statues and read scores of the speeches given at their dedication and I have never seen one that its proponents say is a monument to racism or slavery. Not one. Those who say they are monuments to racism and slavery are simply up to something. Left-wingers from 1850s to today have been keen to talk about slavery and nothing but slavery because it provides cover for a multitude of their sins. Well, there is another side to that story.
Tennesseans fought because their state asked them to. Tennessee asked them to fight because the voters of Tennessee voted 102,172 to 47,328 (68% in favor) to leave the Union. The people of Tennessee, like those of Virginia, declined to secede earlier, but, when the president demanded they take part in an unconstitutional and antidemocratic act, they declined. In other words, the cause of the Tennessee was the cause of self-government.
Why? Some northerners (e.g. John Brown) had murdered southerners, including southerners who did not own any slaves, for example Tennessean James Doyle and his sons, whom Brown hacked to death with cutlasses (e.g. Potawatomie). Many northerners later gave money to him to carry on his “Kansas Work.” Republican officeholders, including the senior senator from Massachusetts and the Republican front-runner for president, knew about Brown’s next attack a year and a half beforehand and told nobody. Republican governors used their offices to protect escaped terrorists. And then a majority of northerners elected a Republican to the office of president. Why would any southerner, slaveholder or not, male or female, white or black want to live in a Union with people so filled with blind, indiscriminate hate?
Then the president announced a policy so directly opposed to democratic self-government and so contrary to the principles of the Constitution that the majority of Tennesseans refused to take part and refused to remain in a Union led by such men. The people of Tennessee decided democratically to leave the Union and asked Tennesseans to protect the state. These monuments are dedicated to the memories of those who answered that call.
I guess that is what I would tell them. If we do not come to some reasonable accommodation, then despicable acts of vandalism like this attack on a statue in a Georgia cemetery will continue. Is a statue in a cemetery not allowed either? Or maybe a spirit of tolerance and forbearance is called for.
 

gtowntide

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This policy is what you get when you have white flight from urban settings.

If somebody were to complain about an MLK monument calling it "a monument to plagiarism and womanizing," I'm sure most folks would view that person as being malicious or obtuse or both. Even if true, that is not why we erected monuments to his memory. We wish to remember his virtues.
I have examined hundreds of these statues and read scores of the speeches given at their dedication and I have never seen one that its proponents say is a monument to racism or slavery. Not one. Those who say they are monuments to racism and slavery are simply up to something. Left-wingers from 1850s to today have been keen to talk about slavery and nothing but slavery because it provides cover for a multitude of their sins. Well, there is another side to that story.
Tennesseans fought because their state asked them to. Tennessee asked them to fight because the voters of Tennessee voted 102,172 to 47,328 (68% in favor) to leave the Union. The people of Tennessee, like those of Virginia, declined to secede earlier, but, when the president demanded they take part in an unconstitutional and antidemocratic act, they declined. In other words, the cause of the Tennessee was the cause of self-government.
Why? Some northerners (e.g. John Brown) had murdered southerners, including southerners who did not own any slaves, for example Tennessean James Doyle and his sons, whom Brown hacked to death with cutlasses (e.g. Potawatomie). Many northerners later gave money to him to carry on his “Kansas Work.” Republican officeholders, including the senior senator from Massachusetts and the Republican front-runner for president, knew about Brown’s next attack a year and a half beforehand and told nobody. Republican governors used their offices to protect escaped terrorists. And then a majority of northerners elected a Republican to the office of president. Why would any southerner, slaveholder or not, male or female, white or black want to live in a Union with people so filled with blind, indiscriminate hate?
Then the president announced a policy so directly opposed to democratic self-government and so contrary to the principles of the Constitution that the majority of Tennesseans refused to take part and refused to remain in a Union led by such men. The people of Tennessee decided democratically to leave the Union and asked Tennesseans to protect the state. These monuments are dedicated to the memories of those who answered that call.
I guess that is what I would tell them. If we do not come to some reasonable accommodation, then despicable acts of vandalism like this attack on a statue in a Georgia cemetery will continue. Is a statue in a cemetery not allowed either? Or maybe a spirit of tolerance and forbearance is called for.
I guess the MLK monuments never bothered me because he stood for peace and the brotherhood of all men and women regardless of their race. His private life shouldn't stain his accomplishments for an entire race of people in our country.
These confederate monuments are of men who supported slavery of a race of people who are still feeling its effects. This doesn't mean all people that fought for the south were supporters of slavery in any way. What I don't understand is why so many people want to memorialize men who supported slavery. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.
 

Go Bama

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When I was in dental school I used to walk past the Forrest statue every day. If I knew then that he was buried there then I have forgotten it. Forrest park is one city block. My dorm was across the street from the NW corner of the park and the dental school was/is across the street from the SE corner. We students learned to ignore the daily requests for money from the winos who infested the park. It was in no way a nice place.

I think most people’s impression of Forrest is that of a slave trader, ruthless yet effective general, and member of the KKK. I had no idea he had ever changed his mind on racism, but even so, if I’m an African-American living in Memphis I wouldn’t care to see a statue of a former slave trader or KKK member regardless of how contrite he was.
 

Go Bama

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This is off topic but is somewhat related.

I have a friend, Jerry Flippin, a lawyer who just turned 90. We go to church together and he is a patient of mine. Mr Flippin is one of the most unique characters I’ve ever known and he has a plethora of stories.

His grandparents lived in Milan during the Civil War. His grandfather was captured by the Yankees at Shiloh, but he was able to escape so he came home to Milan to check on his family. They had substantial land and a large house. After a few days of being home, the grandfather left to go join General Forrest’s regiment leaving his wife and two children at home.

Shortly thereafter, a troop of Union soldiers came through Milan. They were instructed to get supplies so they took all of Mr Flippin’s grandmother’s food, livestock, clothes, blankets, everything. Before they left the Union captain rode up to the grandmother who at the time was a young woman holding her two young children, one of which would have been Mr Flippin’s mother or father, I don’t know which. The Captain asked her where her husband was. Distraught she told him he was with Forrest. The Captain then noticed she was wearing a Free Mason pendant on a necklace and he wanted to know if her husband was a Free Mason. The grandmother replied that indeed her husband was a Free Mason. The Captain then instructed his men to put everything back because evidently he was a Free Mason, too.

Mr Flippin broke down in tears as he was relating this story to me so I took it for the truth. I’ve related it the best I can recall.
 
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92tide

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I have examined hundreds of these statues and read scores of the speeches given at their dedication and I have never seen one that its proponents say is a monument to racism or slavery. Not one
that is because the whole point of the lost cause narrative is to try to glorify the confederacy and pretend it had nothing to do with slavery and racism. a lot of folks have fallen for it.
 

Tidewater

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that is because the whole point of the lost cause narrative is to try to glorify the confederacy and pretend it had nothing to do with slavery and racism. a lot of folks have fallen for it.
Granted. None of the Union monuments I have examined mentioned anything anti-democratic (or unconstitutional) about refusing to respect voters' wishes to leave the Union and then overthrowing elected state governments and replacing them with military governments. Robert Penn Warren called the northern counterpart to the Lost Cause the North's "Treasury of Virtue."
Northerners at the time and since have been extremely reluctant to discuss how anti-democratic the Union cause was, or its questionable constitutionality.
The northern/consolidationist idea that "it was about nothing but slavery"* is as unsupportable as the southern "it had nothing to do with slavery" argument.


* If you can't trust a left-wing party hack to give you simplistic historical truth about complex events, who can you trust?
Paul Begala said:
The Civil War was fought over slavery
The Civil War was fought over slavery
The Civil War was fought over slavery.
This will be on the test.
 
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Tidewater

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Here's why this is a problem.
Ivanka Trump posted on Twitter a photo of her husband hugging her son on the back of a small fishing boat. In the background is a US flag and a <gasp> Confederate flag. Not on the boat they're on, mind you. It is just in the background on some fishing hut apparently they happened to be sailing past when the photo was snapped.
The Twitterverse is outraged.

"I get to misinterpret what you are saying, be outraged by my misinterpretation, and, because of my outrage, shout down anything you are saying. What you actually "said" and your intentions don't enter into it."

There are plenty of things to criticize Kushner over. This is simply not one of them.
 
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crimsonaudio

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Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

The reality is WWII has long been my favorite study in war due to several issues: the scale of the war was enormous, the fascination with how the people of Germany could be led down the path hey were, and the nearly perfect divide of good vs evil. None of these are what I wish to discuss, per se, just explaining how this becomes my touch point for relation.

There were many Nazi party members in Germany who were good people - people who didn't support the extermination of the jewish people, the Poles, the Gypsies, etc. Just as the party itself wasn't our, unadulterated evil, its policies weren't either - in some cases they were downright progressive, even by today's standards.

Note - I'm not defending Naziism - I'm simply pointing out that even they weren't PURE evil. There were good and bad - while their policies led to absolute horror, there were some good people in the party. But no one would want to congratulate them or shake their hand for being a good person in a sea of evil - they were still part of the horror of Nazism.

Likewise, a black person in Memphis doesn't care - nor should we insist they care - about someone who was a good person but chose to be a part of a group that believed slavery was okay, was one of the rights they fought for. Yes, it's guilt by association, but that's how it works in the real world.

So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
 

Tidewater

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Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

...
So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
Every German town and village has a monument of some kind to young men from that town that died in the wars of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. No swastikas. Just names of dead young men from the town.
Franklin Towne said:
When such young men fall in a cause in which they believe, whether it is intrinsically right or wrong, one may realize the sadness of cutting off a life so full of promise, yet all … will accord them the tribute of sincere respect and admiration.
Captain Franklin Towne, Union veteran ca. 1866.

This guy probably wasn't a slaveholder.

Neither was this kid.

They were fighting because their state told them to.
Their names were lost, so the only memorial they get is in their county courthouse.
And many southerners opposed secession, but supported their state government anyway. N. B. Forrest was one of them.

I guess this issue gets tied up in Americans' love of the underdog (which I understand) , that and an attempt to make up for the evils of slavery (which is commendable). Unfortunately, all those who suffered from slavery have passed on. Their descendants alive today are suffering from something besides slavery. Attempts to pin that on the states that voted to leave the Union are misplaced. I guess today people try to pour into things Confederate all the anger they feel for almost everything that disappoints them. The KKK, black disfranchisement, Jim Crow and segregation all happened under the U.S. flag.

As I said before two problems.
1. If you dishonor soldiers who died pursuant to the orders of the government, one day, the government will not find defenders when it needs them most.
2. Those in a hurry to take down monuments saying they are monuments to slavery and racism should at least furnish us with the inscriptions or the texts of the speeches given at their dedication indicating that is why they went up in the first place. If they cannot, then it shows lazy and sloppy thinking. And, in the future, this sloppiness will be used in other ways. "World War II monuments are dedicated to defenders of a government that engaged in Japanese internment" or the Andrew Jackson monument in Jackson Square New Orleans has to come down because it is dedicated to the organizer of the Trail of Tears. At one point in the future, we will have monuments only to perfect people who defended perfect governments. And future governments may have difficulty finding people to come forward to defend them.
 

Crimson1967

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Should we all just collaborate and copy and paste our responses in order from the last Confederate Monuments thread or what?
We could just have about six megathreads as we seem to rehash the same topics over and over.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Chukker Veteran

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that is because the whole point of the lost cause narrative is to try to glorify the confederacy and pretend it had nothing to do with slavery and racism. a lot of folks have fallen for it.
The Civil War had nothing to do with slavery, and even if it did, our Confederate heroes were real nice to their slaves! Mean ol' Yankees made those poor slaves get out and look for work when they could have been content picking cotton and watching their owners selling off their families to the best bidder.
Imagine some snowflake taking offense over that.
 

TNElephantitis

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Not to rehash, as this has been discussed for a long time here, but I figured I'd take one more shot at explaining why I think Memphis did the right thing here.

First, I get it - I don't believe the Civil War was fought about just slavery, but that it was one of the issues rolled into the big argument regarding State's rights under the 10th Amendment. I also don't believe that all who fought for the South thought slavery was okay, nor do I consider Lincoln a hero. Many here have forgotten more about the Civil War than I'll ever know, but I'm not ignorant about it.

So bear with me here - keep in mind I'm not directly comparing the Confederacy to Nazi Germany, but there are parallels here that make sense.

The reality is WWII has long been my favorite study in war due to several issues: the scale of the war was enormous, the fascination with how the people of Germany could be led down the path hey were, and the nearly perfect divide of good vs evil. None of these are what I wish to discuss, per se, just explaining how this becomes my touch point for relation.

There were many Nazi party members in Germany who were good people - people who didn't support the extermination of the jewish people, the Poles, the Gypsies, etc. Just as the party itself wasn't our, unadulterated evil, its policies weren't either - in some cases they were downright progressive, even by today's standards.

Note - I'm not defending Naziism - I'm simply pointing out that even they weren't PURE evil. There were good and bad - while their policies led to absolute horror, there were some good people in the party. But no one would want to congratulate them or shake their hand for being a good person in a sea of evil - they were still part of the horror of Nazism.

Likewise, a black person in Memphis doesn't care - nor should we insist they care - about someone who was a good person but chose to be a part of a group that believed slavery was okay, was one of the rights they fought for. Yes, it's guilt by association, but that's how it works in the real world.

So while people can claim it's a slippery slope - I don't really care. Just as I wouldn't expect a Jewish person to be okay with statues of 'good' Nazis, I don't expect my fellow Memphians to be okay with statues of men who chose to be a part of a group fighting to preserve slavery.

Again, I'm not saying the Confederacy was evil, nor am I comparing them to Nazis - I'm simply making there point that there was at least one aspect of their fight that was wrong, and making excuses for it just doesn't cut it for me.
Speaking as a black woman who born and raised in Alabama but has lived in Memphis for 19 years, I agree with you 100 percent
 

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