Bad calls...
- Thread starter TIDE-HSV
- Start date
Just want to say, while I greatly appreciate indybison for posting and I would have personally liked to see a little more respect for him as an individual (as per the board's already standing policy) yet I have come to the conclusion that refs play favorites, based on what he said, despite his intentions. I came to this conclusion by reading indybison himself, and while I think he won't agree, I hope he read this with an open mind. If you enter into a situation where you throw flags "when they make a difference", you negate the strategic factor of each team creating scenarios in which the other team can make a difference. It is necessary that a superior athletic team will foul less because... it makes less difference!!!!
LeBron James says this every day!!!! He hates that since it affects him less he gets less calls. If you base it in effect instead of rules, the superior team inevitably is penalized.
If Alabama dominates such that the other team is hopeless, then by definition only when bama interferes with them does it "make a difference". I am sure this is not the intention but it is the result. The better team will always be penalized.
Respect and conflict are not pairwise mutually exclusive. There is no rule against conflict.
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Members are free to disagree with each other - even with great passion - so long as they do not resort to personal attacks/insults and other prohibited behaviors. This makes for a relatively free and healthy discussion, which TideFans generally encourages.
I hope indybison sticks around as he brings an interesting perspective and seems to be a reasonable and knowledgeable gentleman.
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If I understand IndyBison's interpretation of the rules correctly then our opponents are not being flagged because even IF they commit any infractions..... they have not actually gained any advantage against us.... so there is no need to throw the flag.
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No they are not mutually exclusive but in this case they were. I stand by what I said.
Yours,
-D
Lol exactly because Bama is so good opponents can't gain an advantage on us so no flags are thrown.
The lsu au game was one I was going to post, glad someone was able to locate it.
I've umpired baseball at the HS and JUCO level in the not to distant past and my father continues to this day.
I think many sports fans would have a better appreciation for officials in all sports, if they gave it a shot in any sport at any level.
It's really a thankless job, but most officials I know absolutely love the game and try their hardest to do a great job.
IndyBison, thanks for taking the time!!!
I think many sports fans would have a better appreciation for officials in all sports, if they gave it a shot in any sport at any level.
It's really a thankless job, but most officials I know absolutely love the game and try their hardest to do a great job.
IndyBison, thanks for taking the time!!!
Even if ball was tucked and ran with it was minimum def holding, but ... had to be thrown when seen.
It's been happening for years. Usually it works out OK and keeps the game moving at a better pace, but LABama pointed out a scenario where it can be disastrous. There are also other problems with this approach.
I actually think the refs are better than ever, though it's impossible to prove, but the game has changed and the scrutiny and passion are much greater, thus more complaints.
EXCELLENT THREAD! UGA fans had some valid issues to complain about but obviously 1) missed calls did not cost UGA the game and 2) the refs missed calls for both teams and this thread does a great job of showing that. RTR.
That's not what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with whether or not the other team would accept or decline. It has to do with whether or not the action was part of the play. This is where terms like point of attack and material restriction come into play.
Here is another similar example where rules meet philosophy to effectively manage the game. An offensive player is defined as either a back or a lineman. A lineman is anyone who is breaking the waist of the snapper. A back is anyone (other than the QB under center) who is not breaking the waist of an adjacent lineman. If you can picture that there could be a player that is in no man's land between those two situations. The tackle could be back enough that he's still on the line and the slot could be reaching the tackle's waist but not the snapper. So by definition he's not a lineman, and he's not a back. That is an illegal formation. But it's not called because it's pretty clear to everyone based on number and position that he's an eligible receiver and a back. A similar thing is true when you have two wideouts staggered with one supposed to be on the line and the other a back but the back is breaking the waist of the receiver on the line. As long as there is some stagger you let it go. That's where philosophy meets rule and it works.
I haven't felt directly attacked here. There have been comments that are probably out of line toward officials in general and directed at me indirectly because I'm the messenger. I just see no need in engaging in an argument because that likely won't change the mind of the other person. What I'm attempting to do is share not only what the rules are but also what they mean and how they are applied. These are pretty common types of philosophies across all levels of all sports.
I used to be in the same boat as those making these comments but never realized it until I got into officiating. Once I learned the rules I realized how little I actually knew. Then when I started learning philosophies I realized I knew even less. I like watching a baseball or basketball game with officials from other sports because I learn a lot about how they apply the rules.
One of the biggest challenges is most of us learned the rules by watching games on TV and listening to the announcers. They often don't know or understand the rules and share incorrect information. The best example I can give is there is no foul in basketball called over the back or reaching in. Those actions can lead to fouls if other things happen (I.e. displacement when jumping over someone), but in themselves they are not fouls and there are no fouls with those names. But announcers use them so we all think they exist.
The officials working on the SEC have years of experience and training. They have been through varying levels of scrutiny to get to that level in a very competitive environment. There is a shortage of officials at the high school level and below, but getting into and advancing in college football is very competitive. They'll still make mistakes and there is still judgement involved in some calls but we all try to learn and apply the same philosophies so they are consistent play to play and game to game and we help manage the game without inserting ourselves into the game because nobody came to see us.
So I'm happy to answer questions and try to clarify something you saw, but I'm not going to engage in arguments or attacks.
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Seems more like a way to cherry pick and avoid discussing things that obviously fly in the face of the reality of the rules/sport.
I can get why you'd ignore some of them (some of mine included) but you've been avoiding most of the ones that point out how what you're saying is incorrect and/or doesn't line up with the reality of the game.
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This happens a LOT to our DL guys and gets called more often than holding (which we almost NEVER get and that’s a FACT!). The reason for that is that our guys are so explosive the holds often don’t slow them enough but the head snapping up gets spotted more easily. My favorite thing to point out is the physics involved when you have a 6’4-6’6†guy flying straight to a qb and then suddenly spinning out of control. How does that happen Mr. Ref?
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There's several scenarios in which myself and others have mentioned that seem to contradict the "philosophy of applying the rules" that you keep referring to. I'd like to see you answer those questions. Most of them have to do with unintended consequences of only calling a penalty that is at the point of attack or what you consider material restriction. If a foul occurs that is not at the point of attack, then there's a fumble, that penalty that was not called could still impact the rest of the play. IOW, you never know how a play will turn out so it doesn't make sense to most of us to only call fouls that are "material restrictions" because what may be immaterial in one moment may become material in the next.
I'd also be interested if you could quote in the rule book where it states that holding, for example, should only be called at the point of attack. I've never heard of that before. Penalties are called away from the ball all the time..
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You mention announcers wrongly commenting on penalties during games. Have you watched enough games announced by Herbstreit to know his comments about DPI and the need to turn one's head? If you are familiar with his comments, can you please comment on them?
Regarding the general questions about later fumbles on a play and a potential hold earlier away from the runner, that doesn't apply. If the restriction continues after the fumble and the player executing the block isn't trying to get to the ball, you could definitely have a hold for the continuing action. I would definitely have to see the play though.
Generally once the ball is loose it's a free for all and the rules allow any player to push, pull, or grab an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball. If you are just holding someone to prevent them from getting to the ball, that would be a foul.
There are many instances where separate acts during a down aren't related to each other. As you are describing this I would say that applies.
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Generally once the ball is loose it's a free for all and the rules allow any player to push, pull, or grab an opponent in an attempt to get to the ball. If you are just holding someone to prevent them from getting to the ball, that would be a foul.
There are many instances where separate acts during a down aren't related to each other. As you are describing this I would say that applies.
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