Baseball HOF has 0 inductees this year
- Thread starter 81usaf92
- Start date
And I want you to know (not that it matters) I understand this position, and I find it FAR MORE CONSISTENT than "well this guy goes because he was a HOFer before he used" (uh......how do you even know when he began using to make that ignorant comment???)
Steroids amplify your physical talents...making you stronger and keeping you stronger during the season. If they did not, they would not be illegal. The Players Union in NFL pushed for their exclusion long before the clubs...these players knew if some took them then all would have to do so.
After I learned as a teenager that Mickey Mantle was no saint, then I quit putting athletes on pedestals. I could care less what their political views may be...very few are in mensa.
As for baseball, I also quit caring a long time ago...as a boy in Mobile I lived and died with baseball...loved that game. Today, I don't even bother to watch the World Series...
After I learned as a teenager that Mickey Mantle was no saint, then I quit putting athletes on pedestals. I could care less what their political views may be...very few are in mensa.
As for baseball, I also quit caring a long time ago...as a boy in Mobile I lived and died with baseball...loved that game. Today, I don't even bother to watch the World Series...
Exactly they do amplify your abilities. If Tony Gwynn took roids many of those doubles would have been in the seats
Andruw Jones was the best defensive outfielder of the last 30-40 years. How is he not a HoFer?
That's a BELIEF people have.
It isn't EVIDENCE that he was.
And you don't put center fielders on your team because of great defense (not primarily anyway).
Andruw WAS on his way to the Hall.
Wanna know what else he has? The absolute biggest overnight dropoff of any GOOD player in the history of baseball. Had he kept it going even at slightly below the pace he'd set in his early years, he'd have made it.
As a Braves fan, it's not like I take any joy in this because I don't. Jones was about as surefire a HOF in his youth as Steve Garvey appeared to be as he aged. But he went off the cliff too soon and at too young an age.
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On Murphy btw, let's take DzynKing's point from above and change it a tiny bit:
Put Jim Rice on the Braves and Murphy on the Red Sox hitting right directly in front of HOF Yaz, playing like a Hall of Famer but going off the cliff too soon himself Fred Lynn, and Hall of Famer Carlton Fisk....and Murphy might well have nearly SIX HUNDRED homers in Fenway Park as a right-handed hitter.
Rice going in before Murphy given that Rice spent a chunk of his career as a DH is egregious in the extreme.
Agreed that his dropoff was HUGE. When he gained weight, he became a bad baseball player and even his defense suffered. But for most of his career he was worth at least one run per game on defense. That is like adding 162 RBIs to his offensive numbers - probably closer to 200.
You're correct, steroids doesn't improve hand eye coordination. So when Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Conseco and the rest of the players took them, it didn't improve their already insane ability to hit a baseball.
Steroids allows a player to not only heal faster and get stronger, but basically stay in their prime for 5-6 years longer than they other wise would. Take a look at Bonds career. Between his rookie year of 1986 and 1999, he only hit 40 hrs 3 times and that was between the age of 27-32 years old. That age range is no doubt, within the natural prime of his career. But then from 2000-2004 (age 35-39) he reels off 5 consecutive years of 40+ homeruns with one year being 73 hrs. Bonds hitting 40 hrs isn't unheard of, he definitely had the skills to do it. But 5 consecutive years of it from 35-39 yrs of age and it doesn't look like any 5 year stretch in the prime of his career?
Aaron still hit 30-40 hrs/year in this same age range. But it looked a lot like what he did throughout his career. He'd hit 30+ for a few years, get a 40+ the next. Drop back down to 30 hrs/year for a few years then get another 40. That's not what Bond's statistical career pattern looks like. You see a pattern, then you see this (the red circled area). I was born at night, just not last night. I want to pose a question to the board. What if Hank Aaron had an additional 5 years in his prime, what would the record had been for Bonds to catch?
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A decent argument could be made as to which player benefitted the most from using steroids, that McGwire benefitted the most. McGwire admitted in a post career interview that he had nagging injuries through out a lot of his career, causing him to miss games. He stated his body was breaking down before he was ready to stop playing.
Bonds never had that problem so I think he could have still played relatively as long as he did, minus the ridiculous numbers on the back end. McGwire, however, I don't think would have made it as long as he did without the steroids. If you look at 1993, 1994 and 1997, McGwire missed over 360+ baseball games.
Bonds never had that problem so I think he could have still played relatively as long as he did, minus the ridiculous numbers on the back end. McGwire, however, I don't think would have made it as long as he did without the steroids. If you look at 1993, 1994 and 1997, McGwire missed over 360+ baseball games.
Just a comment being from the Huntsville area where Conseco and McGwire both played AA ball Conseco made a statement after he had admitted to steroid use that without phd's he would not have been a good softball player. I take that comment as to this greatly enhancing is career. As far as Curt Schilling goes his performance as a major league pitcher particularly in playoff circumstances would include him in the hof politics aside.
I think some of that statement may have been said tongue and cheek. There's not a pill, shot, or cream in the world that can improve someone's hand eye coordination. God given ability and A LOT of work is required and any player that's made a MLB or even minor league roster didn't do so beause of a pill, shot or cream. It's just not that easy.
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I disagree, Andrew Jones should get in IMO. I see the arguments but I still think he should get in.
You are right - I meant the guys who really had a shot this year. I also think that Rolen should get in eventually.
I can't believe Fred McGriff isn't in the HOF.
He's clean and has All-time great numbers for a power hitter.
The HOF voters are idiots.
He's clean and has All-time great numbers for a power hitter.
The HOF voters are idiots.
If he would have literally hit 7 more HR's before he retired he would already be in the HOF. But I have no doubt 493 hrs compared to 500 hrs is what has kept him out.
Addressing the "morality clause" of the baseball hof and the sports writers having the power to levy it as a reason to keep someone out. Stephen A Smith said it best in that it is known among those in the business that there are many sportswriters (with HOF votes) that are drunks, drug addicts and "many other things". Yet we allow them to pass moral judgement on others.
So we keep them out of a writer's HoF? They certainly get fired every single day for their personal indiscretions.
The problem is the inconsistencies in which "we" decide when morality or lack thereof becomes enough to keep someone out of the HOF. I think a morality clause sounds good in theory, but horribly inconsistent in application. So horribly inconsistent that it needs to be thrown in the trash and the scope of the evaluation needs to be what they did on the baseball field.
People who can fog a mirror are smart enough to discern that simply because a body of writers deem a person worthy of being in the HOF, doesn't mean they condone or agree with other aspects of their life that go outside the realm of the sport. There are other institutions of life that deal with those areas (the court system, divorce lawyers, court of public opinion, ostracization etc.)
Again, I think including a morality component to the criteria, though honorable in theory, is just too much to bite off and discern in an objective manner.
Same here, I still watch it and keep up with it in part because I still love baseball but mostly because my boys love it. The game has changed so much in how it's played and what is considered "great" baseball. I just chalk it up that I'm getting older and seeing shifts in sports cultures that I never saw because I just wasn't old enough to have seen them happen.
But my boys LOVE IT and that makes me happy, so I still follow the game.
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