Fascism? Or is it Nationalism?

[Tide1986]

Interesting article about "fascism" being thrown around today:

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/nationalism-is-rising-not-fascism/

Recently, there have been a number of articles and statements asserting that fascism is rising in Europe, and that Donald Trump is an American example of fascism. This is a misrepresentation of a very real phenomenon. The nation-state is reasserting itself as the primary vehicle of political life. Multinational institutions like the European Union and multilateral trade treaties are being challenged because they are seen by some as not being in the national interest. The charge of a rise in fascism derives from a profound misunderstanding of what fascism is. It is also an attempt to discredit the resurgence of nationalism and to defend the multinational systems that have dominated the West since World War II.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Well I know a bunch of old Germans, really old at this point. They say that you can change a few words around and you're listening to Hitler. Just FWIW...

 

[crimsonaudio]

Well I know a bunch of old Germans, really old at this point. They say that you can change a few words around and you're listening to Hitler. Just FWIW...

People seem to forget that Hitler didn't rise to power by murdering the Jews, gypsies, etc - he rose to power by exciting the nationalistic feelings the Germans had lost after WWI. The horrible stuff came later.

I don't think Trump is Hitler II, I think he's just an idiot who has lived his whole life isolated from the real world and therefore sees everything as a black and white issue. I think he's incredibly dangerous, but I don't think his intentions are evil.

For clarification, this is in no way any sort of endorsement or support of Trump - I'm simply comparing what I know if the two.

 

[GreatMarch]

Well I know a bunch of old Germans, really old at this point. They say that you can change a few words around and you're listening to Hitler. Just FWIW...

I am sure if those old, or really old Germans were in Koln today, they would be complaining about the large influx of Syrian and other Muslim populations into their country. I am sure if they are really old, they stood by as their older brothers and fathers marched into Poland, or Russia, or France and murdered millions of people!
I do not hear so much of Americans going into Cuba, or Mexico, or eastern Europe, or east Asia and murdering lots of nationals there, but I sure read reports, on a daily basis, those individuals coming here and committing some horrific crimes against American citizens.

 

[NationalTitles18]

People seem to forget that Hitler didn't rise to power by murdering the Jews, gypsies, etc - he rose to power by exciting the nationalistic feelings the Germans had lost after WWI. The horrible stuff came later.

I don't think Trump is Hitler II, I think he's just an idiot who has lived his whole life isolated from the real world and therefore sees everything as a black and white issue. I think he's incredibly dangerous, but I don't think his intentions are evil.

For clarification, this is in no way any sort of endorsement or support of Trump - I'm simply comparing what I know if the two.

True enough - all of it. But he told everyone long before he rose to have power just who he was and what he would do. He did stoke nationalism, but also socialism and a sort of "social justice". Germany was a complete wreck economically. Hitler's socialist message appealed to the poor and industrialists alike since he would make sure the poor had provisions but would only be rewarded for their work. He also stoked anti-communism (which instead of being national socialism was against borders) and antisemitism (Jews were blamed for post-WWI economic woes). His henchmen also repeatedly attacked the "Reds" and the Jews throughout the 20's and early thirties. Anyone who had no clue about what Hitler would do when he acquired power had their head in the sand and/or was naive beyond belief. Perhaps the extent of his depravity could not be known, but the general direction was.

Trump seems more a populist is the Wallace vein. He frightens me in many ways but I don't think he intends to or could possibly be Hitler reincarnate or even Hitler-lite. He'd have to work hard to be Wallace-lite. He is dangerous in some ways, as he is racially divisive and also because he doesn't seem to be able to buy a clue. It's still hard to believe he is the presumed nominee of a major American party.

 

[ValuJet]

I am sure if those old, or really old Germans were in Koln today, they would be complaining about the large influx of Syrian and other Muslim populations into their country. I am sure if they are really old, they stood by as their older brothers and fathers marched into Poland, or Russia, or France and murdered millions of people!
I do not hear so much of Americans going into Cuba, or Mexico, or eastern Europe, or east Asia and murdering lots of nationals there, but I sure read reports, on a daily basis, those individuals coming here and committing some horrific crimes against American citizens.

That's an inconvenient fact a lot of people refuse to acknowledge while complaining about Trump.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I am sure if those old, or really old Germans were in Koln today, they would be complaining about the large influx of Syrian and other Muslim populations into their country. I am sure if they are really old, they stood by as their older brothers and fathers marched into Poland, or Russia, or France and murdered millions of people!
I do not hear so much of Americans going into Cuba, or Mexico, or eastern Europe, or east Asia and murdering lots of nationals there, but I sure read reports, on a daily basis, those individuals coming here and committing some horrific crimes against American citizens.

Actually, you'd be very wrong. My former next door neighbor, now 94 but very lucid and cogent, said a few weeks ago that she was proud of her country's stance in accepting so many refugees...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

True enough - all of it. But he told everyone long before he rose to have power just who he was and what he would do. He did stoke nationalism, but also socialism and a sort of "social justice". Germany was a complete wreck economically. Hitler's socialist message appealed to the poor and industrialists alike since he would make sure the poor had provisions but would only be rewarded for their work. He also stoked anti-communism (which instead of being national socialism was against borders) and antisemitism (Jews were blamed for post-WWI economic woes). His henchmen also repeatedly attacked the "Reds" and the Jews throughout the 20's and early thirties. Anyone who had no clue about what Hitler would do when he acquired power had their head in the sand and/or was naive beyond belief. Perhaps the extent of his depravity could not be known, but the general direction was.

Trump seems more a populist is the Wallace vein. He frightens me in many ways but I don't think he intends to or could possibly be Hitler reincarnate or even Hitler-lite. He'd have to work hard to be Wallace-lite. He is dangerous in some ways, as he is racially divisive and also because he doesn't seem to be able to buy a clue. It's still hard to believe he is the presumed nominee of a major American party.

I think there's some truth in what you're saying. I don't think he's Hitler. OTOH, I do think he's authoritarian to his bone and that sets him in direct opposition to my gut feelings about overreaching federal power, which he's advocating, if anyone would really pay attention to what he's saying. I can't imagine him in power with henchmen. I'm learning a lot about what people really believe in and to what degree they will abandon their principles to vote for a label...

 

[NationalTitles18]

I think there's some truth in what you're saying. I don't think he's Hitler. OTOH, I do think he's authoritarian to his bone and that sets him in direct opposition to my gut feelings about overreaching federal power, which he's advocating, if anyone would really pay attention to what he's saying. I can't imagine him in power with henchmen. I'm learning a lot about what people really believe in and to what degree they will abandon their principles to vote for a label...

He is authoritarian. This seems to go against "conservative principles" until you consider that modern conservative principles seem to favor authoritarianism which aligns with conservative goals - freedom, federalism, and other supposed principles be damned. In that context Trump's rise in somewhat conservative circles makes more sense than on the surface. It is still mildly surprising some of the people who have come out showing support for him lately. But it does go with the notion that Republicans are for more government to advance their cause and against it to advance Democrat causes. Government is evil when Democrats wield its power and good when Republicans wield it. There is no true principle in regards to the inherent nature of government, only the intent and outcome, and thus no true principle where the Party and many who fly its banner are concerned. It seems a relative few Americans consider core principles anymore and instead seem dragged from one extreme to another depending on the issue of the day. Here is where I flash back to babes tossed to and fro by every wind and houses built on sand and unprincipled men leading themselves to ruin. I found myself caught in that at one time. I've spent a number of years now trying to discover my core principles and reconcile the conflicts they produce within me. It's still a work in progress for me but I don't see many people around me that seem to give things that much thought. That's not entirely true here or even "in real life", but by and large that's the way it seems. So, it seems less abandoning principles and more not holing any to begin with when it comes right down to it. No principle. No overarching philosophy. Just political expediency and self-centeredness.

 

[Gr8hope]

There really is no such thing as "modern conservatism." The word "conservative" has been redefined to mean what those who have falsely claimed to be conservatives display as their principles. True conservatives shun authority from the federal government. Most of those who support authoritarian candidates and more regulations are more concerned with their own positions and Party rather than the principles that would bolster freedom and prosperity.

 

[ValuJet]

The topic being discussed here ("fascism") is seen by Trump supporters as what we've been under the last 7 1/2 years with a congress unwilling to keep executive power in check out of a fear of being called "racist."

Trump supporters see their guy as someone who wil reverse the damage to the country from government run healthcare, unchecked immigration and all the problems associated with it, a foolish and destructive foreign policy, and silly distractions like suing wedding cake bakers, making ROTC students march around in high heels, and demanding schools to allow kids to use whatever restroom they want, otherwise lose funding. Please.

They see the country completely off the rails and Trump is the best chance to right the ship. They see Hillary Clinton as completely unacceptable. Without borders do we have a need for laws? And without laws do we have a country? At that point why would we need a government? Reference the unprovoked attacks on Trump supporters three days ago in San Jose. Are vicious thugs running society? President Obama while quick to insert himself in the 2016 election fails to even mention the thuggery. Those incidents embolden Trump supporters and bring even more people toward Trump as they occur.

Trump is being labeled a racist, homophobe, misogynist, Nazi, xenophobe, among other complimentary labels. It's the same every election cycle and the Trumpsters are ready to take things in a different direction. They do not see Trump as a Mitt Romney who will turn the other cheek as his character is destroyed. The fact that Trump hits back and hits back hard (where did Bill Clinton go?) is a breath of fresh air and his detractors are going bonkers. I'm not saying I'm voting for Trump but this is fun to watch.

One final thought - I know we have a 223 page megatbread on Trump but does anyone really think a vote will be swayed by anything in that thread?

 

[ValuJet]

Oops - 232 pages.

 

[Tide1986]

Actually, you'd be very wrong. My former next door neighbor, now 94 but very lucid and cogent, said a few weeks ago that she was proud of her country's stance in accepting so many refugees...

For sure it is easy to be proud from afar.

 

[ValuJet]

Surely the elderly German lady is aware of the rash of sexual assaults committed by the refugees as she makes that statement. I can't imagine she would find that acceptable to the young German women who are forced to deal with it.

 

[NationalTitles18]

The topic being discussed here ("fascism") is seen by Trump supporters as what we've been under the last 7 1/2 years with a congress unwilling to keep executive power in check out of a fear of being called "racist."

Trump supporters see their guy as someone who wil reverse the damage to the country from government run healthcare, unchecked immigration and all the problems associated with it, a foolish and destructive foreign policy, and silly distractions like suing wedding cake bakers, making ROTC students march around in high heels, and demanding schools to allow kids to use whatever restroom they want, otherwise lose funding. Please.

They see the country completely off the rails and Trump is the best chance to right the ship. They see Hillary Clinton as completely unacceptable. Without borders do we have a need for laws? And without laws do we have a country? At that point why would we need a government? Reference the unprovoked attacks on Trump supporters three days ago in San Jose. Are vicious thugs running society? President Obama while quick to insert himself in the 2016 election fails to even mention the thuggery. Those incidents embolden Trump supporters and bring even more people toward Trump as they occur.

Trump is being labeled a racist, homophobe, misogynist, Nazi, xenophobe, among other complimentary labels. It's the same every election cycle and the Trumpsters are ready to take things in a different direction. They do not see Trump as a Mitt Romney who will turn the other cheek as his character is destroyed. The fact that Trump hits back and hits back hard (where did Bill Clinton go?) is a breath of fresh air and his detractors are going bonkers. I'm not saying I'm voting for Trump but this is fun to watch.

One final thought - I know we have a 223 page megatbread on Trump but does anyone really think a vote will be swayed by anything in that thread?

I agree - to a degree. EVERY repub is labeled a Nazi and all the rest by the leftists. Trump does have the guts to fight back and at times it has been entertaining. I personally see him as more of a charlatan. A lot of people will feel betrayed by him if he's elected when he does just the opposite of what he said he'd do during the election cycle. Thrn they'll lose even more hope.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Surely the elderly German lady is aware of the rash of sexual assaults committed by the refugees as she makes that statement. I can't imagine she would find that acceptable to the young German women who are forced to deal with it.

She's aware of the bigger picture but recognizes the problems caused. The problems don't outweigh the humanitarian good. Not all Germans agree with her, but more do than people would in this country...

 

[Tidewater]

As usual, the problem lies with definition.
Fascism, as I understand it the concept, involves (1) belief in the racial superiority of one's nation or ethnicity especially vis-a-vis minorities or neighbors (2) aggressive foreign policy (3) state-corporate partnership and (4) rejection of liberal ideas on self-determination.

As an aside, northerners (especially New Englanders) in 1861: (1) yes (2) yes (3) yes, (4) yes.

 

[rgw]

I don't know if Trump is a fascist politically but I do think his candidacy was a inevitability in this country due to changing demographics. He's speaking to the white populace that is slowly becoming a minority in this country. Furthermore, I think he's just nakedly saying many platform points that the GOP has been saying with dogwhistle-type coded language for decades. Yet, he's discarded some platform points of the old guard GOP which makes him appear more liberal. For example, he doesn't really care that much about social conservatism which has aligned the GOP with evangelical Christians for the last 40+ years. And it makes sense if you look at his platform from the "he's appealing to the average discontented white person" point of view. White people can be homosexual. White people occasionally like to smoke marijuana. There are more white people on welfare than any other minority.

To be fair, the growing play from liberals in the country with identity politics is amplifying the fungibility of Trump's white nationalism. I have been saying for the last few years that the identity politics mouthpiece on blogs and youtube would eventually lead to a 1968 election type blowback for the democrats. Trump may be the personification of the response.

 

[ValuJet]

I don't know if Trump is a fascist politically but I do think his candidacy was a inevitability in this country due to changing demographics. He's speaking to the white populace that is slowly becoming a minority in this country. Furthermore, I think he's just nakedly saying many platform points that the GOP has been saying with dogwhistle-type coded language for decades. Yet, he's discarded some platform points of the old guard GOP which makes him appear more liberal. For example, he doesn't really care that much about social conservatism which has aligned the GOP with evangelical Christians for the last 40+ years. And it makes sense if you look at his platform from the "he's appealing to the average discontented white person" point of view. White people can be homosexual. White people occasionally like to smoke marijuana. There are more white people on welfare than any other minority.

To be fair, the growing play from liberals in the country with identity politics is amplifying the fungibility of Trump's white nationalism. I have been saying for the last few years that the identity politics mouthpiece on blogs and youtube would eventually lead to a 1968 election type blowback for the democrats. Trump may be the personification of the response.

rgw - I like your post but take issue with Trump's appeal to only whites who feel like their grip is slipping away. Trump's appeal is also to Hispanics and African Americans in the mainstream that do not like what they see happening.

Despite what the media tells us, it's not politics along racial lines. Trump's thumbing his nose at the Republican establishment should be evidence of a movement that's really not excluding any particular group, save for Syrian ISIS members clamoring to get in. Good post. Thanks.

 

[Gr8hope]

rgw - I like your post but take issue with Trump's appeal to only whites who feel like their grip is slipping away. Trump's appeal is also to Hispanics and African Americans in the mainstream that do not like what they see happening.

Despite what the media tells us, it's not politics along racial lines. Trump's thumbing his nose at the Republican establishment should be evidence of a movement that's really not excluding any particular group, save for Syrian ISIS members clamoring to get in. Good post. Thanks.

Yes and Trump had the evidence.

Donald Trump: 'Look at my African-American over here'

video:
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...can-kkk-sot.cnn/video/playlists/donald-trump/