BREAKING Israel launches preemptive attacks against Iran (US bombs Iran)...

[Tidewater]

It also proved that there is a such thing as “necessary evil”. Saddam pretty much kept the non Arabian Peninsula Arab world in check and the Iranians weren’t as committed to funding Arab terrorists as they are now. Removing Saddam created more chaos and instability in the Middle East that hadn’t been seen since the fall of the Ottomans. And to think that we have two world leaders barking for a regime change knowing full well with what happened in Iraq and Libya when foreign powers forced it.

I think Netanyahu conned Trump into this ridiculous conflict under the guise that it would be easy and no one would question it. But we have reached the point where it’s beyond obvious that it’s far more complicated than what BiBi has sold it as and Trump’s party is starting to fight itself over the possibility of war.

I just don’t see many positives in continuing this for the US or Israel because you risk more than you gain from the gamble.

I agree. Saddam was terrible for Iraq (and he was a bad guy), but he was very useful for the US, and Saudis and Kuwaits. Iraq having a bad guy in charge, however, is not my problem. That is for the Iraqis to sort out.

I've said it here before, but the folks who launch wars unleash things they do not intend and do not desire. The Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, the Confederates firing on Ft. Sumter, the French starting the Franco-Prussian War. Statesmen would be wise to bear that in mind when pondering starting a war.

 

[Bamaro]

I am absolutely not understanding why being involved in this mess even entered Trump's mind..

How do our national interests benefit, and what is the end game here?

I honestly have no clue.

Keeping Iran from developing nukes is in (nearly) everyone's benefit

 

[dayhiker]

Yeah and Ted can’t even admit that AIPAC lobbies for a foreign government

Massie's interview on Tucker about a year ago was really interesting for lots of reasons. The AIPAC part was especially interesting.

The end of the interview was fantastic. He talked about building his house and then later on, personally installing an industrial type hot water heater he bought of ebay in the county jail.

 

[Its On A Slab]

I agree. Saddam was terrible for Iraq (and he was a bad guy), but he was very useful for the US, and Saudis and Kuwaits. Iraq having a bad guy in charge, however, is not my problem. That is for the Iraqis to sort out.

I've said it here before, but the folks who launch wars unleash things they do not intend and do not desire. The Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, the Confederates firing on Ft. Sumter, the French starting the Franco-Prussian War. Statesmen would be wise to bear that in mind when pondering starting a war.

Agreed on all parts.

And we have seen over the centuries the opting out of the sons of the aristocracy and powered interests, leaving the fighting to others.

When the decision-makers don't have a dog in the hunt, they will have no qualms about sending someone else's kid into the battlefield.

 

[Huckleberry]

Eliot Cohen, in The Atlantic: “Trump has supported actions that are doing far more than those of any of his predecessors to eliminate a threat that has already killed American soldiers and civilians as well as many others, and that would be infinitely worse if left unchecked. Much as it may pain his critics to admit it, in this matter he is acting, if not conventionally, then like a statesman of a distinctively Trumpian stamp.”


The Atlantic Gift Link

The Three Dramatic Consequences of Israel’s Attack on Iran
Great battles, won or lost, change the entire course of events.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

The reason Dictator Trump uses "2 weeks" all the time is because he hopes by that time that something else will come along and occupy the media's energy. Then he can move on to something else without actually solving anything. Like that article said, his solutions are always "2 weeks" away. Yet his base continues to fall for it every single time.

Let's not forget that he ran on being the only person who could bring peace to the world, yet he hasn't stopped any wars. It's only getting worse under his watch, yet MAGA folks believe he is some great world leader. Please, no foreign power fears this bafoon.

 

[dayhiker]

 

[JDCrimson]

Agree, the media and social attention span is less than 2 weeks. What they are really doing is conjuring up some other diversion rather than a solution.

The reason Dictator Trump uses "2 weeks" all the time is because he hopes by that time that something else will come along and occupy the media's energy. Then he can move on to something else without actually solving anything. Like that article said, his solutions are always "2 weeks" away. Yet his base continues to fall for it every single time.

Let's not forget that he ran on being the only person who could bring peace to the world, yet he hasn't stopped any wars. It's only getting worse under his watch, yet MAGA folks believe he is some great world leader. Please, no foreign power fears this bafoon.

 

[81usaf92]

Keeping Iran from developing nukes is in (nearly) everyone's benefit

1) How do we know that they were? Just because BiBi says it doesn’t make it true because he has said “they are 3 years to 3 weeks away” since 1995.

2) if the goal was to prevent them from having nukes then why is this conflict constantly shifting goals? It kinda is looking like BiBi is more searching for a win than he is preventing Iran from having a nuke.

3) The fact that Modi and BiBi have a nuke and both are deeply concerned about the Ayatollah having a nuke is a little the pot calling the kettle black . So it’s okay that a true modern day fascist and a guy that has maybe seen one year out of 17 where there hasn’t been a conflict between his country and its neighbors. How about let’s go back to only the 5 nuclear powers having nukes.

4) It is telling that the Uranium enrichment program started ramping up after Trump tore up the Obama deal. Something that both AIPAC and Netanyahu both pushed for him to do.

My point is that while it is in most of everyone’s best interests for Iran not to have nuclear capabilities… as it is this situation seems far more like Iraq WMD than the Cuban Missile Crisis that Netanyahu and his crazy party are selling it as.

 

[81usaf92]

Eliot Cohen, in The Atlantic: “Trump has supported actions that are doing far more than those of any of his predecessors to eliminate a threat that has already killed American soldiers and civilians as well as many others, and that would be infinitely worse if left unchecked. Much as it may pain his critics to admit it, in this matter he is acting, if not conventionally, then like a statesman of a distinctively Trumpian stamp.”


The Atlantic Gift Link

The Three Dramatic Consequences of Israel’s Attack on Iran
Great battles, won or lost, change the entire course of events.

This is the part where he totally lost me

“ Perhaps such a strongman will lead Iran to some dark new place. But he could also proceed along the lines of Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince, denouncing and disposing of some of the current elite on charges of treachery, incompetence, and corruption to consolidate his power, and then acting as a dictatorial modernizer. That would be the first step on a much better path for Iran and the rest of the world.”

So a dictatorial modernizer is someone who sends a bunch of guys with cleavers, knives, and surgical equipment to ANOTHER COUNTRY to dismember a journalist who opposed your regime. And do we really want to have a serious discussion about the Saudis and more specifically the House of Sauds tolerance of the practice of Wahhabism that happens in their country. Sure let’s talk about how Salman is spanking the oil sultans and allowing women to drive but let’s ignore that he has done nothing to kill the very death cult practices that influenced 9-11 and the rise of Al-qaeda

 

[dayhiker]

 

[Tidewater]

View attachment 51297

It's funny because it's true.

 

[81usaf92]

I agree. Saddam was terrible for Iraq (and he was a bad guy), but he was very useful for the US, and Saudis and Kuwaits. Iraq having a bad guy in charge, however, is not my problem. That is for the Iraqis to sort out.

I've said it here before, but the folks who launch wars unleash things they do not intend and do not desire. The Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor, the Confederates firing on Ft. Sumter, the French starting the Franco-Prussian War. Statesmen would be wise to bear that in mind when pondering starting a war.

Well there is a theory that most wars are initiated by over enthusiastic military data to support it. Most of it operates only on the absolute best numbers and predictions. Culture, geography, political structure, and potential drawbacks are rarely taken into account. I mean Hitler and his generals literally based their plans on Operation Barbarossa on the Winters War fiasco and only accounted for half of the actual Soviet strength that they faced. They never thought that they would be fighting the women too.

So you got caught sticking your hand into a hornets nest so what do you do? You either go for broke or you find a quick way out.

 

[crimsonaudio]

 

[UAH]

Well there is a theory that most wars are initiated by over enthusiastic military data to support it. Most of it operates only on the absolute best numbers and predictions. Culture, geography, political structure, and potential drawbacks are rarely taken into account. I mean Hitler and his generals literally based their plans on Operation Barbarossa on the Winters War fiasco and only accounted for half of the actual Soviet strength that they faced. They never thought that they would be fighting the women too.

So you got caught sticking your hand into a hornets nest so what do you do? You either go for broke or you find a quick way out.

I heard from one source that Israel and the US have a finite supply of arrow missiles to defend against incoming ballistic missiles. China has placed strigent controls on export ofrare earth metals necessary for production of weapons. As I consider Natanyahu's war today it is difficult to for me to comprehend how both he and Trump arrive at this position with no viable end game

 

[81usaf92]

I heard from one source that Israel and the US have a finite supply of arrow missiles to defend against incoming ballistic missiles. China has placed strigent controls on export of raw earth metals necessary for production of weapons. As I consider Natanyahu's war today it is difficult to for me to comprehend how both he and Trump arrive at this position with no viable end game

Well you also have to understand what both Netanyahu and Trump want. Netanyahu is more straightforward and understandable than Trump because it’s more political than personal. His whole party and movement is based around being the “anti Oslo Party”. When his former IDF commander tells a US diplomat that Hamas is an asset to Israel and videos are starting to circulate of Netanyahu telling West Bank families that he is ripping up Oslo because Judea should be Israel’s by right of conquest then you kinda start seeing that Netanyahu more resembles a conqueror than a defender. His problem is that the Israelis are getting tired of him and his party, and the ICC has arrest warrants out for him committing war crimes in Gaza. So much of the war with Iran is about him maintaining power and control. However, the more Iranian missiles that hit Israel the more unpopular he becomes. His popularity is strictly tied to the idea that Israel is under constant attack and the destruction of any idea of a Palestinian State.

Trump is a bit of an enigma. I think he sees the world as a RISK board more than an Axis and Allies board, and loves playing the tough guy to overcompensate for his obvious weaknesses. The Russian-Ukrainian promise has destroyed his credibility beyond repair and this fight will probably continue to make his foreign policy look even weaker. I just think there is a serious fight between his boot lickers and the few adults left over this and he doesn’t know what to do but can’t say it. So he is just hoping this goes away.

 

[UAH]

Well you also have to understand what both Netanyahu and Trump want. Netanyahu is more straightforward and understandable than Trump because it’s more political than personal. His whole party and movement is based around being the “anti Oslo Party”. When his former IDF commander tells a US diplomat that Hamas is an asset to Israel and videos are starting to circulate of Netanyahu telling West Bank families that he is ripping up Oslo because Judea should be Israel’s by right of conquest then you kinda start seeing that Netanyahu more resembles a conqueror than a defender. His problem is that the Israelis are getting tired of him and his party, and the ICC has arrest warrants out for him committing war crimes in Gaza. So much of the war with Iran is about him maintaining power and control. However, the more Iranian missiles that hit Israel the more unpopular he becomes. His popularity is strictly tied to the idea that Israel is under constant attack and the destruction of any idea of a Palestinian State.

Trump is a bit of an enigma. I think he sees the world as a RISK board more than an Axis and Allies board, and loves playing the tough guy to overcompensate for his obvious weaknesses. The Russian-Ukrainian promise has destroyed his credibility beyond repair and this fight will probably continue to make his foreign policy look even weaker. I just think there is a serious fight between his boot lickers and the few adults left over this and he doesn’t know what to do but can’t say it. So he is just hoping this goes away.

I do appreciate your views on the middle east.

I believe Trump has kicked off a huge problem with the US economy with his misguided tariffs particularly with China. With no cargo hitting LA docks for basically this summer we will begin to see a huge slowdown in retail. I believe that automotives are in the midst of a significant slowdown and am coming to question the future of at least two of the big three US automotive companies. Housing is slowing for a number of reasons and only those who have earning certainy on the higher end participating as buyers currently. I believthe US is entering, has been pushed into, a recession which causes me to wonder what further mistakes a desperate foolish Trump will do as we go forward.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Satellite imagery from June 19 of Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia shows a massive number of military aircraft with U.S. and Allied Air Forces having arrived within the last week or so now amassing at the base, including at least 54 F-16s, 22 KC-135s, and 11 C-130s, as well as a handful of other aircraft on the tarmac and in aircraft shelters at the base.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1936443788123066730

 

[81usaf92]

I do appreciate your views on the middle east.

I believe Trump has kicked off a huge problem with the US economy with his misguided tariffs particularly with China. With no cargo hitting LA docks for basically this summer we will begin to see a huge slowdown in retail. I believe that automotives are in the midst of a significant slowdown and am coming to question the future of at least two of the big three US automotive companies. Housing is slowing for a number of reasons and only those who have earning certainy on the higher end participating as buyers currently. I believthe US is entering, has been pushed into, a recession which causes me to wonder what further mistakes a desperate foolish Trump will do as we go forward.

Trump is like the average American who believes there is a simple point of view for every problem, a simple cause for every problem, and a simple solution for every problem. The truth is that if things were that simple then why are we in so much debt in the first place and why are there so many unemployed and homeless in a country like the United States.

A president can’t think like the average person when solving very complex answers.

But to illustrate my point about Netanyahu and his cronies. This really shows that Netanyahu fears a Palestinian state more than he fears a Hamas attack. The latter prevents the former from happening.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1741196470399783296

 

[Bamaro]

How close they are is open for debate but whether they are working towards a bomb is pretty much a given. Attacking them is a bad idea however letting them proceed is worse.