It's official - Russia enters Crimea

[mittman]

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Call me superstitious, but anytime a country begins 'surreptitiously cremating' folks I get a little weirded out...

Nope, I considered "weirded out" a normal reaction to that action

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Arghh! Evidence erased...

 

[Tide1986]

Arghh! Evidence goes up in smoke...

FIFY

 

[Tidewater]

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Russian media reports civilian casualties in Marinka, Ukraine
Most (60%) Russians get their news from television news, and more (75%) believe what they see.
An ethnic Russian family is destroyed by artillery. Husband & father killed. One child killed, two others wounded. The mother wounded so badly her arm had to be amputated. Russian media reports it was Ukrainians who did it.
Only, when the OSCE observers arrive, they find, from crater analysis and other forensics, that the artillery was fired from Russian separatist-controlled territory.
Somehow, Russian media misses this bit of the story.
Sad. But getting the Russian people to stop their government from invading a neighbor and sponsoring te war is difficult when they Russian people are not even being fed the truth.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

Russian media reports civilian casualties in Marinka, Ukraine
Most (60%) Russians get their news from television news, and more (75%) believe what they see.
An ethnic Russian family is destroyed by artillery. Husband & father killed. One child killed, two others wounded. The mother wounded so badly her arm had to be amputated. Russian media reports it was Ukrainians who did it.
Only, when the OSCE observers arrive, they find, from crater analysis and other forensics, that the artillery was fired from Russian separatist-controlled territory.
Somehow, Russian media misses this bit of the story.
Sad. But getting the Russian people to stop their government from invading a neighbor and sponsoring the war is difficult when they Russian people are not even being fed the truth.

And it goes back centuries. The myth of "the good Czar" lives on in Putin...

 

[Tide1986]

Re: It's official - Russian enter Crimea

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/11/8764887/russia-nato-chart

The nation that is least willing to come to the defense of NATO members on Russia's border is Germany, which opposes action by a factor of about three to two. This is crucial because within Europe, Germany is widely seen as the de facto leader on the tensions with Russia — and the deciding vote should an eastern NATO member come under attack. When I traveled to Berlin this week, analysts warned me that though the German public despises Putin, their deep-seated pacifism and desire to seek compromise over confrontation could make them unwilling to uphold Germany's pledge to NATO

 

[RammerJammer14]

It would be ironic if Germany pulls a Neville Chamberlain on this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[crimsonaudio]

It would be ironic if Germany pulls a Neville Chamberlain on this.

Right? Wow.

 

[Bama Reb]

And now Obama wants to send troops and equipment to Eastern Europe to ''discourage Russian aggression'' there. If this was a chess match, he is badly over matched. Putin is playing with him and is making Obama do what he wants him to do. What an absolute amateur oaf we have as POTUS..

 

[RhodeIslandRed]

Dunno. it seems that germany and europe don't want to escalate this Ukraine business, but the US and Russia seem locked into a tug-of-war of controlling the region -- the US to the point of giving nuclear power to Iran in order to redouble its efforts in Eastern Europe.

 

[RammerJammer14]

I'd say its more a case of Russia deciding it wants Round 2 of the Cold War because that was when they felt relevant, and everyone else is running around with their hands over their ears singing "lalalalala".

 

[RhodeIslandRed]

In Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard, he wrote that controlling the Ukraine was the gateway to controlling Asia (Russia). If the Cold War were over, why bother with them anymore? It just seems that the neocon playbook is still in operation.

 

[RammerJammer14]

Well, I guess that depends on what you think legitimate US foreign intervention is. If you think we should stay out of everything that does not directly involve the US, then I guess you could say the Obama administration is neocon and wants to paint the looming "russian bear" picture, presumably for oil or gas purposes. Or if you think the US has a responsibility to aide its allies and resist hostile takeovers of sovereign nations, then we should probably do something on some level.

It is kind of an isolationist foreign policy view vs a moral foreign policy view.

 

[Tidewater]

Well, I guess that depends on what you think legitimate US foreign intervention is. If you think we should stay out of everything that does not directly involve the US, then I guess you could say the Obama administration is neocon and wants to paint the looming "russian bear" picture, presumably for oil or gas purposes. Or if you think the US has a responsibility to aide its allies and resist hostile takeovers of sovereign nations, then we should probably do something on some level.

It is kind of an isolationist foreign policy view vs a moral foreign policy view.

The West just basically told

The West just basically told Eastern Europe's NATO members that they're on their own if Russia attacks

I have spoken with a couple of Estonians this week and they are under no illusions that the US will honor its commitments in case they are invaded. They are pretty sure that they will be on their own.

I'm pretty sure 98% of Americans could not point out Estonia on a world map, much less explain why the US should be part of a security guarantee for that little country.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I spoke once with a Norwegian who served in their air force during the cold war. Just for curiosity, I asked him what their orders were if the Russians invaded from the north. He said something to the effect firing a few shots, running like hell and yelling for the Americans. I guess that tactic is out now...

 

[Tidewater]

I spoke once with a Norwegian who served in their air force during the cold war. Just for curiosity, I asked him what their orders were if the Russians invaded from the north. He said something to the effect firing a few shots, running like hell and yelling for the Americans. I guess that tactic is out now...

I don't know. The Europeans think that it is important to intervene to arrest Russian aggression, they are just not sure who should intervene. The Europeans have a good thing going (for the time being). Why engage in the heavy lifting if the Americans are willing to do it for you?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I don't know. The Europeans think that it is important to intervene to arrest Russian aggression, they are just not sure who should intervene. The Europeans have a good thing going (for the time being). Why engage in the heavy lifting if the Americans are willing to do it for you?

True. The only other true counterbalance would be the Germans, who have turned so determinedly pacifist. OTOH, does anyone really want a rearmed and aggressive Germany?

 

[Displaced Bama Fan]

True. The only other true counterbalance would be the Germans, who have turned so determinedly pacifist. OTOH, does anyone really want a rearmed and aggressive Germany?

Yes, yes we do. They are the only country with any balls to take on the Russians. I'm still not convinced of the Putin/Merkel relationship though seeing her being raised in East Germany and Putin stationed in E. Germany up to the fall of the Berlin Wall. It might explain her constant "flip flopping" when it comes to Russia.

 

[Tidewater]

True. The only other true counterbalance would be the Germans, who have turned so determinedly pacifist. OTOH, does anyone really want a rearmed and aggressive Germany?

Good point.
I used to say that nothing scares a European like a German with a gun.
Most of the Germans I talk to do not want to start another round of sending the German army off fighting. Heck, one German general recently spoke at a funeral for Bundeswehr troops killed in Afghanistan and he got in trouble (and was pilloried in the German press) because he said the would "krieg" in his comments, as in "These soldiers were killed in the Afghanistan krieg" or he called them Kriegstote" or some such.
They are pretty sensitive to that word and all the emotions it entails.
On the other hands, Germans are quite happy talking about the economic conquest of Europe. I had a German tell me, "This time we conquer Europe the right way: economically."

 

[mittman]

The West just basically told

The West just basically told Eastern Europe's NATO members that they're on their own if Russia attacks

I have spoken with a couple of Estonians this week and they are under no illusions that the US will honor its commitments in case they are invaded. They are pretty sure that they will be on their own.

I'm pretty sure 98% of Americans could not point out Estonia on a world map, much less explain why the US should be part of a security guarantee for that little country.

I know my fair share of Estonians. Most of them do expect us to hold up our end of the bargain, but are nervous as to what extent we will. The general consensus of the ones I know believe NATO will help with arms and troops, but not enough needed to push Russia back out to the original borders. They pretty much believe that there will be some kind of redrawing of lines. A lot of them are more concerned with Latvia for some reason.