Megachurch pastor admits to molesting underage girl

[Bamabuzzard]

I was talking to some folks after church the other day and the question came up, "When did we stop excommunicating people?" At first the question seemed rhetorical, but after reading this post, I'm sort of tempted to look into this. After all, it sure seems like there was some point in history where it went from being a "legitimate threat" to "no threat at all" practically overnight.

That concept of excommunicating being a tool for repentance is actually in the verses I posted. The red underline is saying there will be some form of earthly judgement to the body. This could be something like being arrested, put in prison for the rest of his life, or excommunicated from society. But the "so that" gives indication that it is to get him to turn from his ways, i.e. "desctruction of the flesh" so his soul will be saved on the day of the Lord. So just in that verse, you read the concept of excommunication being a tool for repentance.

But the more beautiful thing is in God's grace and forgiveness (not man's), He gives the sexually immoral who He commanded be thrown out of the church a way to salvation. There have been times where people thought they were going to hell for drinking, or getting a divorce. Yet here we see God giving opportunity for grace and forgiveness for the sexually immoral.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Yeah, I can't speak for those types of churches because I've never been a part of one who demonized the victim. I've been a part of two churches (unfortunately) where a member molested a child not a part of our church and another church where a member was having a sexual relationship with an underage girl who was also not a part of the church. But neither blamed the victims and both reported the perps to the authorities. I really don't know why anyone would demonize the victim and show sympathy to the perp. A church can still want restoration, repentance, and forgiveness for the perp. But it doesn't mean you don't take away a lot of church-going privileges, like going to church there.

A quick look at the recent SBC sex abuse scandal details that victims were often blamed and mistreated. This happens far more times than is ever reported, and not just with SBC churches.

As I said, I am glad when the right thing is done. I wish that was in the neighborhood of universal, or even more common than what usually happens.

 

[Crimson1967]

I've never heard anyone who claims to be a believer make that comparison. You may want to change your theological surroundings.

I have seen people saying it is OK Trump isn’t a perfect person because Paul and David had issues yet God used them to further His cause.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

That concept of excommunicating being a tool for repentance is actually in the verses I posted. The red underline is saying there will be some form of earthly judgement to the body. This could be something like being arrested, put in prison for the rest of his life, or excommunicated from society. But the "so that" gives indication that it is to get him to turn from his ways, i.e. "desctruction of the flesh" so his soul will be saved on the day of the Lord. So just in that verse, you read the concept of excommunication being a tool for repentance.


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No disagreement and the logic absolutely works, but it just isn't something you hear about any more. I'm 49 and I'm trying to remember if I have ever even heard of anyone being excommunicated and I'm failing to remember even one. Back in the middle ages, even kings lived in fear of excommunication (which is one of the reasons the church grew in power the way it did.) Now? Not so much. It just isn't a viable threat to seemingly anyone now.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

A quick look at the recent SBC sex abuse scandal details that victims were often blamed and mistreated. This happens far more times than is ever reported, and not just with SBC churches.

As I said, I am glad when the right thing is done. I wish that was in the neighborhood of universal, or even more common than what usually happens.

I would love to hear or read the argument from the church leaders as to why the victim was at fault. I just can't even make up an argument in my head that would make sense.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

I have seen people saying it is OK Trump isn’t a perfect person because Paul and David had issues yet God used them to further His cause.

If one is to subscribe to the idea of "God's Divine Plan", then one must be open to this. Hell, even Judas served it.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

No disagreement and the logic absolutely works, but it just isn't something you hear about any more. I'm 49 and I'm trying to remember if I have ever even heard of anyone being excommunicated and I'm failing to remember even one. Back in the middle ages, even kings lived in fear of excommunication (which is one of the reasons the church grew in power the way it did.) Now? Not so much. It just isn't a viable threat to seemingly anyone now.

My great-grandmother went to a church that excommunicated. She and my great-grandfather were "staunch" Pentecostal. She fasted and prayed as a common practice of her life. I can say she walked the walk as much as she talked the talk. Much better than I do no doubt. They had zero issues putting you out of the church. But they may have been on of those who taught you'd bust hell wide open if you drank alcohol or got a divorce. So who knows? LOL!

 

[NationalTitles18]

I would love to hear or read the argument from the church leaders as to why the victim was at fault. I just can't even make up an argument in my head that would make sense.

Not trying to "argue" as I think we both agree in reality, but frankly I don't give a damn what the excuse is or the motivation for the excuse, but when it happens it sure does reveal a lot about the character of those involved.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Not trying to "argue" as I think we both agree in reality, but frankly I don't give a damn what the excuse is or the motivation for the excuse, but when it happens it sure does reveal a lot about the character of those involved.

I didn't mean I wanted to hear it as a suggestion that it may convince me the victim was at fault. But to know what came out of their mouths that they somehow justified in their minds. Sometimes hearing depravity gives you a better understanding of it than just the thought of it.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

My great-grandmother went to a church that excommunicated. She and my great-grandfather were "staunch" Pentecostal. She fasted and prayed as a common practice of her life. I can say she walked the walk as much as she talked the talk. Much better than I do no doubt. They had zero issues putting you out of the church. But they may have been on of those who taught you'd bust hell wide open if you drank alcohol or got a divorce. So who knows? LOL!

I grew up in the Baptist tradition which isn't far removed from Pentacostalism, but it didn't take me long to see the problems with denominationalism. Basically, Christianity as a whole lost a lot of credibility with me (and millions of others) by the fact that it was so splintered. I pretty much became agnostic which is where I've been stuck for decades.

I rejected atheism because that can't be proven conclusively, either. (Well, that and the fact that atheists have a tendency to be some of the most insufferable people on the planet....right up there with vegans and cross-fitters.) Lately, I've been doing a lot of introspection, though. This is normal when someone is starting to see the finish line in the distance. It's self-serving, I know, but lately I've been feeling something I can't quite explain.

I dutifully go to church with my wife every weekend and we were married in church. And sometimes....not always, but sometimes...I really, really want to believe. And immediately my psychology stands up to object and just like that, there's a cartoon fight in my head complete with the giant dust-ball, stars and occasional fist flying out of the debris. (And I guess that answers the question many here have had about me: yes, it really is hell in my head sometimes.)

Weird timing, too. I minored in world religion in college and I just found out that I'm going to have to go to my old house and get a lot of my personal belongings and among these belongings are my old textbooks, replete with the writings of Augustine and Aquinas (as well as many of the early church fathers.) Maybe rather than put them in storage, I'll bring them home and see if there is something there that can kick my out of this spiritual rut.

 

[NationalTitles18]

I didn't mean I wanted to hear it as a suggestion that it may convince me the victim was at fault. But to know what came out of their mouths that they somehow justified in their minds. Sometimes hearing depravity gives you a better understanding of it than just the thought of it.

I tried to phrase it so you understood but I failed. I understood where you were coming from. I was just expressing my disgust with those people.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Yeah, I've gone through something similar just not to the point of being agnostic. I struggled with denominations before but came to realize that God's grace and mercy are needed even in our attempts to find the truth within Christianity. The best advice I can give you if you're truly seeking is to read your Bible as often as you can, pray, and meditate as often as you can. At that point it is out of your hands and let the Lord do what He wills. I'll be praying for you.

I grew up in the Baptist tradition which isn't far removed from Pentacostalism, but it didn't take me long to see the problems with denominationalism. Basically, Christianity as a whole lost a lot of credibility with me (and millions of others) by the fact that it was so splintered. I pretty much became agnostic which is where I've been stuck for decades.

I rejected atheism because that can't be proven conclusively, either. (Well, that and the fact that atheists have a tendency to be some of the most insufferable people on the planet....right up there with vegans and cross-fitters.) Lately, I've been doing a lot of introspection, though. This is normal when someone is starting to see the finish line in the distance. It's self-serving, I know, but lately I've been feeling something I can't quite explain.

I dutifully go to church with my wife every weekend and we were married in church. And sometimes....not always, but sometimes...I really, really want to believe. And immediately my psychology stands up to object and just like that, there's a cartoon fight in my head complete with the giant dust-ball, stars and occasional fist flying out of the debris. (And I guess that answers the question many here have had about me: yes, it really is hell in my head sometimes.)

Weird timing, too. I minored in world religion in college and I just found out that I'm going to have to go to my old house and get a lot of my personal belongings and among these belongings are my old textbooks, replete with the writings of Augustine and Aquinas (as well as many of the early church fathers.) Maybe rather than put them in storage, I'll bring them home and see if there is something there that can kick my out of this spiritual rut.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Yeah, I've gone through something similar just not to the point of being agnostic. I struggled with denominations before but came to realize that God's grace and mercy are needed even in our attempts to find the truth within Christianity. The best advice I can give you if you're truly seeking is to read your Bible as often as you can, pray, and meditate as often as you can. At that point it is out of your hands and let the Lord do what He wills. I'll be praying for you.

I appreciate it, mate. I haven't told my wife yet (in case I back out) but I'm strongly considering attending the RCIA when it starts back up. I have a feeling I'll know more about the subject material than the instructor due to my academic background, but it will be interesting nonetheless. I know my wife has been praying, too. Never say never....

 

[81usaf92]

I rejected atheism because that can't be proven conclusively, either. (Well, that and the fact that atheists have a tendency to be some of the most insufferable people on the planet....right up there with vegans and cross-fitters.)

I’ve mostly found American atheists to fall into one of three groups. The 1st is the ones that don’t promote their beliefs, the 2nd those who do but generally don’t care about religious folks unless attacked, and the New Age Atheists who see everyone that isn’t as dumb and religion should be eradicated or at the very least be severely crippled like it is in continental Europe. The last group I find to be just as hypocritical as the religious people they constantly bash, and in many ways they resemble a religion themselves.

I believe in separation of church and state and that everyone should be able to live the way they want as long as it isn’t harmful to society. But at the same time I still don’t accept that the absence of religion is going to cure the nature of humanity like many New Age atheists believe.

 

[Crimson1967]

I have never been to a church where someone was excommunicated. I would not want to attend a church where someone was kicked out unless they had committed some serious crime such as child molestation.

 

[JDCrimson]

Indeed, but you might want to flip on over to Relevation. Liberal democratic governments dont seem to survive...

If one is to subscribe to the idea of "God's Divine Plan", then one must be open to this. Hell, even Judas served it.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

Indeed, but you might want to flip on over to Relevation. Liberal democratic governments dont seem to survive...

Arguably 80% of Revelation prophesy has already come to pass. Nevertheless, as much as I love liberal democracies, they were never going to survive. Why? Because you get what you vote for.

 

[JDCrimson]

So you are okay with getting what you cant vote for?

Arguably 80% of Revelation prophesy has already come to pass. Nevertheless, as much as I love liberal democracies, they were never going to survive. Why? Because you get what you vote for.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

So you are okay with getting what you cant vote for?

LOL, no. My point is that a democracy is only as effective as the people doing the voting. Remember that next time you see some yutz waste an entire minute of his life trying to push his way through a door that’s clearly marked “pull.” My comment wasn’t so much a criticism of democracy as a criticism of the people upon which democracy’s ultimate success or failure relies.

 

[92tide]