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Opinions about new NFL kickoff rules

Isaiah 63:1 said:
This reeks of the NFL's having tried to solve a problem without taking the time fully to understanding what the root cause is. I can't prove that, but I suspect it...
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I mean, the stated reason for the initial change was to reduce injuries. That's fair. The stated change for this was that the previous solution created far more touchbacks, which made KOs less exciting.

Makes sense to me. Looks weird now, but I'm sure plastic helmets looked pretty odd when people had only seen leather to that point.
 
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crimsonaudio said:
I mean, the stated reason for the initial change was to reduce injuries…
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That’s the problem. What’s the root cause of the problem?

in any endeavor, if you treat the problem without understanding and addressing the root cause, you’re managing symptoms and not curing the disease…
 
Isaiah 63:1 said:
That’s the problem. What’s the root cause of the problem?

in any endeavor, if you treat the problem without understanding and addressing the root cause, you’re managing symptoms and not curing the disease…
Click to expand...
I believe the stated root cause is the high speed collisions caused by kickoff returns. It's not rocket srugery - the article I read a while back showed a decline in serious injuries with the updated kickoff rule from a few years ago.
 
crimsonaudio said:
I believe the stated root cause is the high speed collisions caused by kickoff returns. It's not rocket srugery - the article I read a while back showed a decline in serious injuries with the updated kickoff rule from a few years ago.
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it may.not be rocket surgery, but iI’d suggest it is its predecessor,, mechanics, in which Force = Mass x Acceleration (F=MA). How far a tackler runs before contact doesn’t matter if the acceleration (the speed differential between him and the receiver at the moment of collision) is the same. While I couldn’t find stats to indicate the rate of acceleration from a dead start for NFL kick returners and tacklers, I think it’s safe to assume that after 20 yards they are at or near full speed if unimpeded (or else the 40 yard dash wouldn’t mean much). That means that running from the opponent’s 40 and colliding around the 20 with a player who caught the ball at or near the goal line could easily result in impact at the same acceleration as if the tackler had run from the 2023 kickoff spot. And since their mass in this example is a constant (unless they’re moving at relativistic speeds, but oh boy is THAT a wormhole), that would mean the force is unchaged.

My thinking here is based on an admittedly speculative premise: that NFL leadership cares not so much about the injuries on kickoffs as about the appearance of trying to do something about the injuries on kickoffs. If they really cared about injuries primarily, they would change the definition of a legal tackle to reduce acceleration by outlawing collisions that do not result in wrapping up the player and holding him to the ground, which is the rule in, say, rugby (and, yes, I have gone down this path before on Tidefans, to at best mixed results - most of us have our windmills to tilt at, and this is one of mine). but that would remove a level of violence from the sport that the NFL must think fans demand; and so we get this Kabuki dance instead of real improvement. The players get paid handsomely, but they also pay the price. I wonder what they think?

I’d genuinely love to be proven wrong, because what I think is going on, if true, isn’t very flattering to the league or, if they’re right about the expected product, the fans…
 
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Next they will decide that extra point formations are too dangerous and need to change those. They dont want to eliminate these parts of the game because then the only thing left is the part of the game that actually carries the most injury risk. They need special teams to tinker with to "show" they are trying to make the game safer.
 
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JDCrimson said:
Next they will decide that extra point formations are too dangerous and need to change those. They dont want to eliminate these parts of the game because then the only thing left is the part of the game that actually carries the most injury risk. They need special teams to tinker with to "show" they are trying to make the game safer.
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I don't disagree with your point. At the same time, the data (for instance, in this 2022 article) clearly show that kickoffs and punts account for more injuries than other plays even before adjusting for frequency of play type. When you do make that adjustment, the injury incidence rate for special teams plays is significantly higher.

If we make special teams plays safer, the game (all other things being equal) will be safer; but as long as we allow collisions in place of tackles (on punts, say; or standard scrimmage plays), players will still be at greater risk than they need to be. So, the question is, how does the NFL balance reasonable safety with on-the-field product? You and I seem to feel they have made that clear, if not transparent.
 
In my opinion, its stupid.

So while the new rules were imposed to protect the players and still allow for returns, NFL teams want to eliminate or limit returns from the opposing team.

Only 2 weeks of the pre-seaon have played, and it looks like 1 team has figured out how negate some of the rule changes.

Instead of kicking the ball end over end and looking for hang time and distance, why not kick the ball soccer (more like a helicopter) style that will cause the ball to spin, drop within the landing zone (where it has to be returned), but more difficult to catch and handle by the return team.

 
NWGATideFan said:
In my opinion, its stupid.

So while the new rules were imposed to protect the players and still allow for returns, NFL teams want to eliminate or limit returns from the opposing team.

Only 2 weeks of the pre-seaon have played, and it looks like 1 team has figured out how negate some of the rule changes.

Instead of kicking the ball end over end and looking for hang time and distance, why not kick the ball soccer (more like a helicopter) style that will cause the ball to spin, drop within the landing zone (where it has to be returned), but more difficult to catch and handle by the return team.

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I do so love the law of unintended consequences…
 
Isaiah 63:1 said:
it may.not be rocket surgery, but iI’d suggest it is its predecessor,, mechanics, in which Force = Mass x Acceleration (F=MA). How far a tackler runs before contact doesn’t matter if the acceleration (the speed differential between him and the receiver at the moment of collision) is the same. While I couldn’t find stats to indicate the rate of acceleration from a dead start for NFL kick returners and tacklers, I think it’s safe to assume that after 20 yards they are at or near full speed if unimpeded (or else the 40 yard dash wouldn’t mean much). That means that running from the opponent’s 40 and colliding around the 20 with a player who caught the ball at or near the goal line could easily result in impact at the same acceleration as if the tackler had run from the 2023 kickoff spot. And since their mass in this example is a constant (unless they’re moving at relativistic speeds, but oh boy is THAT a wormhole), that would mean the force is unchaged.

My thinking here is based on an admittedly speculative premise: that NFL leadership cares not so much about the injuries on kickoffs as about the appearance of trying to do something about the injuries on kickoffs. If they really cared about injuries primarily, they would change the definition of a legal tackle to reduce acceleration by outlawing collisions that do not result in wrapping up the player and holding him to the ground, which is the rule in, say, rugby (and, yes, I have gone down this path before on Tidefans, to at best mixed results - most of us have our windmills to tilt at, and this is one of mine). but that would remove a level of violence from the sport that the NFL must think fans demand; and so we get this Kabuki dance instead of real improvement. The players get paid handsomely, but they also pay the price. I wonder what they think?

I’d genuinely love to be proven wrong, because what I think is going on, if true, isn’t very flattering to the league or, if they’re right about the expected product, the fans…
Click to expand...

Idk enough to know if this new kickoff rule will keep injuries down but I think it is clear why they did it.

Players were getting a lot of head and severe injuries on kickoffs, so they moved the kicker to the 35 yard line. The result of that was a decrease in injuries but also made kickoffs a dead play. I think last year under a 3rd of kickoffs were returned. And largely the decrease in injuries was simply caused by the decrease of returns, the amount of injuries per return stayed the same IIRC.

Now, they are trying to see if a different kickoff method will keep injuries down but increase the number of returns. So far, it seems like returns are increasing but we won't know for sure until we get some regular season games. I don't think they have data on if injuries are still down with the new rule or not but I'm sure they will get that data this season and see if they need to reassess or add any other changes. You may be right that it will not decrease the amount of injuries per return we will find out.
 
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NWGATideFan said:
In my opinion, its stupid.

So while the new rules were imposed to protect the players and still allow for returns, NFL teams want to eliminate or limit returns from the opposing team.

Only 2 weeks of the pre-seaon have played, and it looks like 1 team has figured out how negate some of the rule changes.

Instead of kicking the ball end over end and looking for hang time and distance, why not kick the ball soccer (more like a helicopter) style that will cause the ball to spin, drop within the landing zone (where it has to be returned), but more difficult to catch and handle by the return team.

Click to expand...
They knew things like this would happen. Its basically a one year experiment
 
RollTide_HTTR said:
Idk enough to know if this new kickoff rule will keep injuries down but I think it is clear why they did it.

Players were getting a lot of head and severe injuries on kickoffs, so they moved the kicker to the 35 yard line. The result of that was a decrease in injuries but also made kickoffs a dead play. I think last year under a 3rd of kickoffs were returned. And largely the decrease in injuries was simply caused by the decrease of returns, the amount of injuries per return stayed the same IIRC.

Now, they are trying to see if a different kickoff method will keep injuries down but increase the number of returns. So far, it seems like returns are increasing but we won't know for sure until we get some regular season games. I don't think they have data on if injuries are still down with the new rule or not but I'm sure they will get that data this season and see if they need to reassess or add any other changes. You may be right that it will not decrease the amount of injuries per return we will find out.
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Right, all of which lends credibility to (though does not prove) the assertion that NFL leadership either doesn't understand the root cause of the injuries, or does understand but is prioritizing the product over player health while distracting us with experiments.

A double diamond analysis, coupled with second order thinking, would be the place to start if the NFL really wanted to solve this problem. I wonder if they did either?
 
Extending this thought... Rather than field positioning or scrimmage delays, who says you have to play 11 v 11 on kickoffs? If it was 9 v 9 you might not play as fast because your lane to cover got wider. Play more defensively to not overrun your lane. Put smaller quicker guys on kickoff coverage. But it still looks like kickoff coverage.

Isaiah 63:1 said:
I don't disagree with your point. At the same time, the data (for instance, in this 2022 article) clearly show that kickoffs and punts account for more injuries than other plays even before adjusting for frequency of play type. When you do make that adjustment, the injury incidence rate for special teams plays is significantly higher.

If we make special teams plays safer, the game (all other things being equal) will be safer; but as long as we allow collisions in place of tackles (on punts, say; or standard scrimmage plays), players will still be at greater risk than they need to be. So, the question is, how does the NFL balance reasonable safety with on-the-field product? You and I seem to feel they have made that clear, if not transparent.
Click to expand...
 
Isaiah 63:1 said:
Right, all of which lends credibility to (though does not prove) the assertion that NFL leadership either doesn't understand the root cause of the injuries, or does understand but is prioritizing the product over player health while distracting us with experiments.

A double diamond analysis, coupled with second order thinking, would be the place to start if the NFL really wanted to solve this problem. I wonder if they did either?
Click to expand...
You're asking a lot of questions no one can answer under the presupposition that the NFL cares about product over player safety. They have to balance the two, and while I'm no NFL apologist, I also have no reason to assume they're just shooting in the dark regarding kickoff safety, either.
 
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Redwood Forrest said:
It appeared to me that the ball carrier wasn't the object of the rule. The lineman are now so close together they looked much like a scrimmage. But I don't watch NFL and only saw a couple of kickoffs Sunday.
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I think this is a good observation.

The receiving team hinders the defense/kicking team coverage in a tighter area, but as some of the defenders break thru it'll create more one on one plays in space for the ball carrier.
 
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