Questions For Creationists

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Rainbow Tider said:
ill knock this one off while im here. ready? klaatch was wrong.

the point that you dont see is that racists will use whatever they can to prove their white point ofview. guess you must have missed your history classes else youd know that southerners used mostly the bible to explain why they had enslaved black folks. because the good book said they could. ha! klaatch was laughably wrong, and so were your great great great grandparents.

That doesnt even scratch the surface... much less knock anything off.. not even a bunt.. we are talking about evolution and racisim.. there is a connection, let's talk about the questions it raises.. not a bunch of BS.

I didnt say evolution caused racism... The points that are raised by my post and the other 20 or 30 I have found everywhere I look are interesting...If I am misguided show me.. Your response is about as weak as I could of ever imagined.. I know Blackum can do better... but maybe not. Tell me you weren't raised in the public schools of Alabama.
 
blackumbrella said:
i don't imagine i'll need to put it down.

what's the point? look at bowtie's post. racists, xenophobes, haters, always try to prop up their bs with impressive sounding 'evidence.' what are we debating, anyway? that evolution is inherently racist? does the fact that kkk and others use/d religion to support their agendas of hate mean religion is inherently racist? if so, you win.


i agree with that statement. my response to the previous quote applies here also.
.
"As Koster notes about Darwin's view on race, he:
'never considered "the less civilized races" to be authentically human. For all his decent hatred of slavery, his writings reek with all kinds of contempt for "primitive" people. Racism was culturally conditioned into educated Victorians by such "scientific" parlor tricks as Morton's measuring of brainpans with BB shot to prove that Africans and Indians had small brains, and hence, had deficient minds and intellects. Meeting the simple Indians of Tierra del Fuego, Darwin wrote: "I could not have believed how wide was the difference between savage and civilized man; it is greater than between a wild and domesticated animal . . . Viewing such a man, one can hardly make oneself believe that they are fellow creatures and inhabitants of the same world."44
Darwin's belief that some races (such as blacks) were inferior to others became so widely accepted that, as Haller concluded: 'the subject of race inferiority was beyond critical reach in the late nineteenth century.45 Although Darwin opposed all forms of slavery, he did conclude that one of the strongest evidences for evolution was the existence of living 'primitive races' which he believed were evolutionarily between the 'civilized races of man' and the gorilla:"
darwin fixation again. who cares? are thomas jefferson's ideas all nullified bc he owned slaves.


absolutely. generally speaking, most everyone in the world is inferior to certain scandinavian populations when it comes to brute strength, inferior to certain african populations when it comes to sheer speed and certain other african populations when it comes to distance running, inferior to certain sherpa populations when it comes to high altitude endurance. i'm not convinced there are any cognitive diffences independent of cultural differences, or, for that matter, that anyone even has a satisfactory definition of intelligence, iq, g, or whatever you want. obviously, this kind of operational definition is the first step toward measuring intelligence and mapping that across races, which is also a hard to define concept. a good proportion of cognitive scientists will tell you 'intelligence' is an umbrella term describing not a general faculty, but a number of more specific cognitive proficiencies. but more importantly, what if there is a race difference in 'intelligence'? is an autistic individual 'inferior' (in the general sense in which you seem to use it) to a nobel laureate? people can be inferior or superior in certain areas, but i tend to agree with the general moralistic observation that people are equally precious. you can cite as many evolutionists who were also racists as you like; there are far more racist religious zealots, which brings to mind a certain idiom about stones, houses, and glass.


Thanks for the reply, although I disagree at least it was thought provoking..
How does the KKK compare to a theory that would show indeed scientificaly, races are at different levels of evolution scale. Should we then grant civil rights to our brother the monkey? How about the rat? Where's the cut off? If there are inferior races this is not consistant with with what we are taught, and would play into the racist camp very well... The bible however is consistant with non racist ideas. You are quick to point out possible physcial differences but hold off on intelligence... interesting.

Where should we set the standards with school testing?

So lets gather from what you are saying that there are inferior races and evolution helps prove this yet it is only being abused when used in a racist manner. Thats like saying, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

If there are inferior races which one does Rainbow Tider belong to?

Racism also stems from ignorance, the God of love can not be ever shown in a racist light. It's not the numbers of evolutionists that are racists, it the theory that supports this faultly reasoning.

Also you must keep in mind that evolution is a very faulty theory hanging on a thread.
 
"Biologically, 'races' are often called subspecies and are defined as animal groups that are physiologically and chromosomally distinct from other members of the species but which can interbreed. In humans they are differentiated primarily by such characteristics as skin and hair color, hair texture, and skull, nose and eye shapes. 16 In evolutionary theory, the survival advantage factor is the chief explanation for the existence of most differences. Because these differences result from the survival advantage that they confer upon an organism, an evolutionist must assume differences between or within a group likely exist because they provide some inherent survival advantage for the animal. Since the key survival advantage of humankind over 'lower animals' is intelligence, consequently differences in this trait likely also exist between the races. This is exactly what has been assumed by many eugenicists, evolutionists, sociologists, and psychologists, both before and since the time of Darwin.17-2l This conclusion has justified a wide variety of governmental and scientific policies, not the least infamous were racial genocide programs."

Do you agree with the above statements?

http://biblebelievers.net/creationscience/kjcevol1.htm
 
KillVols said:
Thanks for the reply, although I disagree at least it was thought provoking..
How does the KKK compare to a theory that would show indeed scientificaly, races are at different levels of evolution scale.
evolution scale? huh?

So lets gather from what you are saying that there are inferior races and evolution helps prove this yet it is only being abused when used in a racist manner. Thats like saying, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"
huh? you don't need evolution to prove 'races' have differences, but we're all the same species. is a golden retriever inferior to a lab?

and sure i hold off on intelligence. as i mentioned, the foremost problem is that no one can define intelligence. is it learning? pure neurological processing power? a combination? how do you test it?
 
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KillVols said:
"Biologically, 'races' are often called subspecies and are defined as animal groups that are physiologically and chromosomally distinct from other members of the species but which can interbreed.
you realize that by this definition, you are a different race from your kids.

In humans they are differentiated primarily by such characteristics as skin and hair color, hair texture, and skull, nose and eye shapes. 16 In evolutionary theory, the survival advantage factor is the chief explanation for the existence of most differences. Because these differences result from the survival advantage that they confer upon an organism, an evolutionist must assume differences between or within a group likely exist because they provide some inherent survival advantage for the animal. Since the key survival advantage of humankind over 'lower animals' is intelligence, consequently differences in this trait likely also exist between the races. This is exactly what has been assumed by many eugenicists, evolutionists, sociologists, and psychologists, both before and since the time of Darwin.17-2l This conclusion has justified a wide variety of governmental and scientific policies, not the least infamous were racial genocide programs."

Do you agree with the above statements?
i have no way of disagreeing or agreeing since it doesn't defien intelligence. otherwise i don't disagree.
 
blackumbrella said:
i don't imagine i'll need to put it down.

what's the point? look at bowtie's post. racists, xenophobes, haters, always try to prop up their bs with impressive sounding 'evidence.' what are we debating, anyway? that evolution is inherently racist? does the fact that kkk and others use/d religion to support their agendas of hate mean religion is inherently racist? if so, you win.


i agree with that statement. my response to the previous quote applies here also.
.
"As Koster notes about Darwin's view on race, he:
'never considered "the less civilized races" to be authentically human. For all his decent hatred of slavery, his writings reek with all kinds of contempt for "primitive" people. Racism was culturally conditioned into educated Victorians by such "scientific" parlor tricks as Morton's measuring of brainpans with BB shot to prove that Africans and Indians had small brains, and hence, had deficient minds and intellects. Meeting the simple Indians of Tierra del Fuego, Darwin wrote: "I could not have believed how wide was the difference between savage and civilized man; it is greater than between a wild and domesticated animal . . . Viewing such a man, one can hardly make oneself believe that they are fellow creatures and inhabitants of the same world."44
Darwin's belief that some races (such as blacks) were inferior to others became so widely accepted that, as Haller concluded: 'the subject of race inferiority was beyond critical reach in the late nineteenth century.45 Although Darwin opposed all forms of slavery, he did conclude that one of the strongest evidences for evolution was the existence of living 'primitive races' which he believed were evolutionarily between the 'civilized races of man' and the gorilla:"
darwin fixation again. who cares? are thomas jefferson's ideas all nullified bc he owned slaves.


absolutely. generally speaking, most everyone in the world is inferior to certain scandinavian populations when it comes to brute strength, inferior to certain african populations when it comes to sheer speed and certain other african populations when it comes to distance running, inferior to certain sherpa populations when it comes to high altitude endurance. i'm not convinced there are any cognitive diffences independent of cultural differences, or, for that matter, that anyone even has a satisfactory definition of intelligence, iq, g, or whatever you want. obviously, this kind of operational definition is the first step toward measuring intelligence and mapping that across races, which is also a hard to define concept. a good proportion of cognitive scientists will tell you 'intelligence' is an umbrella term describing not a general faculty, but a number of more specific cognitive proficiencies. but more importantly, what if there is a race difference in 'intelligence'? is an autistic individual 'inferior' (in the general sense in which you seem to use it) to a nobel laureate? people can be inferior or superior in certain areas, but i tend to agree with the general moralistic observation that people are equally precious. you can cite as many evolutionists who were also racists as you like; there are far more racist religious zealots, which brings to mind a certain idiom about stones, houses, and glass.



but i tend to agree with the general moralistic observation that people are equally precious.

How can you make this claim? How can you even generally agree?
 
KillVols said:
Thanks for the reply, although I disagree at least it was thought provoking..
How does the KKK compare to a theory that would show indeed scientificaly, races are at different levels of evolution scale. Should we then grant civil rights to our brother the monkey? How about the rat? Where's the cut off? If there are inferior races this is not consistant with with what we are taught, and would play into the racist camp very well... The bible however is consistant with non racist ideas. You are quick to point out possible physcial differences but hold off on intelligence... interesting.

Where should we set the standards with school testing?

So lets gather from what you are saying that there are inferior races and evolution helps prove this yet it is only being abused when used in a racist manner. Thats like saying, "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"

If there are inferior races which one does Rainbow Tider belong to?

Racism also stems from ignorance, the God of love can not be ever shown in a racist light. It's not the numbers of evolutionists that are racists, it the theory that supports this faultly reasoning.

Also you must keep in mind that evolution is a very faulty theory hanging on a thread.


Should we then grant civil rights to our brother the monkey? How about the rat?

Oh it is coming. Evolution is playiing an active role in the death or reason. There are a couple of major universities that have begun to train a new class of lawyers on a new type of law, animal rights. It wont be long til animals will be represented in a court somewhere. It shouldnt be a shock, it is a natural spinoff from teaching the evolution lie to a generation. They are all grown up now.
 
in•tel•li•gence - 1 a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

rea•son - 2 a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways

In general, intelligence would be the capability of a person to understand, think, learn, infer, etc. So it would not necessarily encompass the knowledge accrued through education, but the potential of a person to gain that knowledge through education. In other words, are some races less capable of learning and reasoning than others?
 
BeccaBama said:
in•tel•li•gence - 1 a (1) : the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations : REASON; also : the skilled use of reason (2) : the ability to apply knowledge to manipulate one's environment or to think abstractly as measured by objective criteria (as tests)

rea•son - 2 a (1) : the power of comprehending, inferring, or thinking especially in orderly rational ways

In general, intelligence would be the capability of a person to understand, think, learn, infer, etc. So it would not necessarily encompass the knowledge accrued through education, but the potential of a person to gain that knowledge through education. In other words, are some races less capable of learning and reasoning than others?

here's a site that touches on history and current thinking in theories of intelligence. http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/hotTopics.shtml

here's a blurb from the site responding to the genetic/iq link implied in the bell curve. it seems to answer your question.

"On the genetic nature of IQ:

ìHerrnstein and Murray's second claim, the lightning rod for most commentary, extends the argument for innate cognitive stratification to a claim that racial differences in IQ are mostly determined by genetic causesósmall differences for Asian superiority over Caucasian, but large for Caucasians over people of African descent. This argument is as old as the study of race, and is almost surely fallacious. The last generation's discussion centered on Arthur Jensen's 1980 book Bias in Mental Testing (far more elaborate and varied than anything presented in The Bell Curve, and therefore still a better source for grasping the argument and its problems), and on the cranky advocacy of William Shockley, a Nobel Prize-winning physicist. The central fallacy in using the substantial heritability of within-group IQ (among whites, for example) as an explanation of average differences between groups (whites versus blacks, for example) is now well known and acknowledged by all, including Herrnstein and Murray, but deserves a restatement by example. Take a trait that is far more heritable than anyone has ever claimed IQ to be but is politically uncontroversialó body height. Suppose that I measure the heights of adult males in a poor Indian village beset with nutritional deprivation, and suppose the average height of adult males is five feet six inches. Heritability within the village is high, which is to say that tall fathers (they may average five feet eight inches) tend to have tall sons, while short fathers (five feet four inches on average) tend to have short sons. But this high heritability within the village does not mean that better nutrition might not raise average height to five feet ten inches in a few generations. Similarly, the well-documented fifteen-point average difference in IQ between blacks and whites in America, with substantial heritability of IQ in family lines within each group, permits no automatic conclusion that truly equal opportunity might not raise the black average enough to equal or surpass the white mean.î (pg 5)"
 
bamabake said:
but i tend to agree with the general moralistic observation that people are equally precious.

How can you make this claim? How can you even generally agree?

bc i've been raised in a culture that values such things, as reflected in some of its more beloved axioms: love thy neighbor as thyself, all men are created equal, etc. havaing been also raised in that culture, how can you disagree?
 
all this crapola about racism is meant to move this topic away from the science of evolution and toward something you think you have better ground to stand on. but bad news, because your getting dusted up here to. and just so to remind you what your running from.......

toskulls2.jpg


all these hominid species.......were they or were they not walking the earth before modern man? comeon killvols give it the old college try.
 
blackumbrella said:
bc i've been raised in a culture that values such things, as reflected in some of its more beloved axioms: love thy neighbor as thyself, all men are created equal, etc. havaing been also raised in that culture, how can you disagree?





I of course agree. Would then you agree that human life is more precious than say a macaw, or a hippo?
 
Rainbow Tider said:
all this crapola about racism is meant to move this topic away from the science of evolution and toward something you think you have better ground to stand on. but bad news, because your getting dusted up here to. and just so to remind you what your running from.......

toskulls2.jpg


all these hominid species.......were they or were they not walking the earth before modern man? comeon killvols give it the old college try.


Evolution has already been dismissed hera and on the last thread on the subject. Apparently you never read any of it. The link you are making with your pic is laughable. I do understand why you are duped however. I will give you a freebie ( I say that cautiously) just because you have a pic of other species dos not mean they are related to humans. It is an unsupportable assuption. Try and prove it. Actually dont waste your time. We have been down this path and it wasnt the truth that got dusted it was the old assumtive science. It matters not anyway because God made MAN in his image. If you would like I can send you a bible, you can see for yourself.
It is too bad you dont understand the racism aspect as it was brought up BTW. It is part of the discussion.
 
blackumbrella said:
i operate under that assumption bc that's the easiest way to operate in this or most any human culture.


Well as usual... You just gave a NON-ANSWER...


HERE IS HOW ADULTS ( humans ) COMMUNICATE. I wil give you two examples.

bamabake:
I of course agree. Would then you agree that human life is more precious than say a macaw, or a hippo?

blackubrella: yes I would.


bamabake:
I of course agree. Would then you agree that human life is more precious than say a macaw, or a hippo?

blackumbrella: No I would not.

So again I give you a choice. Try to limit your response to ONLY one of the above.. In fact let me make it easier. Simply say YES or NO.. I can gather the rest.............................................................................................................ok.................................................................................................go...
 
bamabake said:
Well as usual... You just gave a NON-ANSWER...


HERE IS HOW ADULTS ( humans ) COMMUNICATE. I wil give you two examples.

bamabake:
I of course agree. Would then you agree that human life is more precious than say a macaw, or a hippo?

blackubrella: yes I would.


bamabake:
I of course agree. Would then you agree that human life is more precious than say a macaw, or a hippo?

blackumbrella: No I would not.

So again I give you a choice. Try to limit your response to ONLY one of the above.. In fact let me make it easier. Simply say YES or NO.. I can gather the rest.............................................................................................................ok.................................................................................................go...

you posed a good question. often good questions are hard to answer. often yes or no is not as honest answer as something else. insofar as i can be objective, i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy, but is it really so 'mere', as i say it is, and why do i say it's 'mere'? if a certain batch of the matter/energy can contemplate itself as such, isn't that special? yes. but how do we know other m/e clumps don't have similar contemplations, only of lesser degree? or maybe those contemplations aren't similar at all but different in kind altogether? what then? still can it be said one kind is more precious than the other kind? subjectively, i favor my own species bc my conspecifics are the ones i'm most invested in, the ones i care about. basically, yes i think hippos and humans should be treated and viewed differently, but i'm not confident in any objective defense of thinking the way i do on the matter.
 
irony

bamabake said:
Evolution has already been dismissed hera and on the last thread on the subject. Apparently you never read any of it.....

Well as usual mr. bamabake ... You just gave a NON-ANSWER...

HERE IS HOW ADULTS ( humans ) COMMUNICATE. I wil give you two examples.

rainbowtider: do you agree there were hominid species walking the earth before modern man?

bamabake: yes I would.

-or-

rainbowtider: do you agree there were hominid species walking the earth before modern man?

bamabake: No I would not.

So again I give you a choice. Try to limit your response to ONLY one of the above.. In fact let me make it easier. Simply say YES or NO.. I can gather the rest.............................................. .................................................. .............ok................................... .................................................. ............go...
 
Rainbow Tider said:
Well as usual mr. bamabake ... You just gave a NON-ANSWER...

HERE IS HOW ADULTS ( humans ) COMMUNICATE. I wil give you two examples.

rainbowtider: do you agree there were hominid species walking the earth before modern man?

bamabake: yes I would.

-or-

rainbowtider: do you agree there were hominid species walking the earth before modern man?

bamabake: No I would not.

So again I give you a choice. Try to limit your response to ONLY one of the above.. In fact let me make it easier. Simply say YES or NO.. I can gather the rest.............................................. .................................................. .............ok................................... .................................................. ............go...


No.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/sea...=query.html&charset=iso-8859-1&btnSearchGo=GO
 
blackumbrella said:
you posed a good question. often good questions are hard to answer. often yes or no is not as honest answer as something else. insofar as i can be objective, i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy, but is it really so 'mere', as i say it is, and why do i say it's 'mere'? if a certain batch of the matter/energy can contemplate itself as such, isn't that special? yes. but how do we know other m/e clumps don't have similar contemplations, only of lesser degree? or maybe those contemplations aren't similar at all but different in kind altogether? what then? still can it be said one kind is more precious than the other kind? subjectively, i favor my own species bc my conspecifics are the ones i'm most invested in, the ones i care about. basically, yes i think hippos and humans should be treated and viewed differently, but i'm not confident in any objective defense of thinking the way i do on the matter.


Well I appreciate an honest answer. Let me ask this then.


If: i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy

And :i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy

Then why :basically, yes i think hippos and humans should be treated and viewed differently
 
bamabake said:
Well I appreciate an honest answer. Let me ask this then.


If: i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy

And :i think hippos and humans and everything else are mere arrangements of matter/energy

Then why :basically, yes i think hippos and humans should be treated and viewed differently

bc "subjectively, i favor my own species bc my conspecifics are the ones i'm most invested in, the ones i care about"
 
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