Russia Invades Ukraine XVI

[AUDub]

The Nazi party started in Ukraine and migrated to Germany

There’s a lot wrong with this post but I just giggled at this one.

 

[AUDub]

Excuse me?

That one’s just a bald faced lie and straight up Propaganda.

Ironically enough it sounds exactly like something that would come out of Vlad’s mouth, and probably has. Think he might have said it during that wild Tucker Carlson interview.

 

[Tidelines]

You guys jump on defending Ukraine's reputation , but not a word on young Americans dying in another propaganda war. Surprising.

 

[AUDub]

You guys jump on defending Ukraine's reputation , but not a word on young Americans dying in another propaganda war. Surprising.

Smart people call this “begging the question”

 

[Chukker Veteran]

Not a single American service member has lost their life in Ukraine.

 

[Tidewater]

You guys jump on defending Ukraine's reputation , but not a word on young Americans dying in another propaganda war. Surprising.

Not defending Ukraine's reputation at all.
Just a simple matter of historical inquiry.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party was founded in Germany.
Fascism I believe preceded the Nazis in Italy, but Mussolini's fascism was a bit different from the NSDAP.
Ukraine at the time was a Soviet Socialist Republic, occupied and ruled (since 1918) by Russian Bolsheviks.
There had been an anti-Russian (and then anti-Soviet) resistance, but that was mostly Ukrainian nationalists (defined as those who believe Ukrainians should govern Ukraine on her own terms). That hardly qualifies as "Nazi."
When the Wehrmacht marched into Ukraine in 1941, the anti-Soviet Ukrainians welcomed them, but that was a marriage of convenience that did not survive sustained contact between Nazi officials (who considered slavs Untermensch) so the Ukrainian People's Army fought the Nazis and the Soviets. When the Wehrmacht marched out in 1943-44, the UPA went back to fighting just the Soviets.

Maybe I am missing something.

 

[NationalTitles18]

There you people go talking about facts again, like they matter. (shout out to the anti-transgender crowd before they erroneously jump in)

 

[AUDub]

Maybe I am missing something.

The last thing through Hitler’s head (well, before the bullet) was “Slava Ukraini!”

 

[Tidelines]

Not defending Ukraine's reputation at all.
Just a simple matter of historical inquiry.
The National Socialist German Workers' Party was founded in Germany.
Fascism I believe preceded the Nazis in Italy, but Mussolini's fascism was a bit different from the NSDAP.
Ukraine at the time was a Soviet Socialist Republic, occupied and ruled (since 1918) by Russian Bolsheviks.
There had been an anti-Russian (and then anti-Soviet) resistance, but that was mostly Ukrainian nationalists (defined as those who believe Ukrainians should govern Ukraine on her own terms). That hardly qualifies as "Nazi."
When the Wehrmacht marched into Ukraine in 1941, the anti-Soviet Ukrainians welcomed them, but that was a marriage of convenience that did not survive sustained contact between Nazi officials (who considered slavs Untermensch) so the Ukrainian People's Army fought the Nazis and the Soviets. When the Wehrmacht marched out in 1943-44, the UPA went back to fighting just the Soviets.

Maybe I am missing something.

That's the start of the Nazi party in Germany, but it wasn't original to Germany only their form of it.

 

[jthomas666]

That's the start of the Nazi party in Germany, but it wasn't original to Germany only their form of it.

Could you perhaps offer some specifics?

 

[Tidelines]

Family history. One of my grandfather's was Ukrainian. He later migrated to Germany were he said he seen the same political ideology taking hold that he had seen in Ukraine. Eventually, he was fortunate enough to make it to America. When my dad went off to WW2, grandpa's instructions to him were, "tell them not to stop at Germany's border."

 

[Tidewater]

Family history. One of my grandfather's was Ukrainian. He later migrated to Germany were he said he seen the same political ideology taking hold that he had seen in Ukraine. Eventually, he was fortunate enough to make it to America. When my dad went off to WW2, grandpa's instructions to him were, "tell them not to stop at Germany's border."

As with any debate, the indispensable first step is to define your terms. (Otherwise you run the risk of wasting time talking past each other).
To say, "Nazism" was born in Ukraine, but I am not at all sure anybody in Ukraine in the 1910s or 1920s (which seems to be the age of your grandfather's birth) would fit the category "Nazi." Nationalist? Sure, but not Nazi. Nazi was an ideology stemming from socialism, public-private partnership in the economy, coupled with extreme nationalism, a chauvinistic view of one's own nation, a hyperaggressive foreign policy, "scapegoat" internal ethnicities, contempt for liberal democracy and in favor of a strong leader. (Wikipedia defines it this way: "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship, fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism, anti-Romani sentiment, scientific racism, white supremacy, Nordicism, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed.")
I do not think either definition applies in its entirety to Ukrainian nationalists in the 1910s or 1920s. I would wager that some of these planks applied to some Ukrainian nationalists of the era, but the UPR in 1917 acted quickly to establish the Tsentralna Rada (Central Council) as a legislative authority, something no real Nazi would have done. They were anti-communist, but mostly because the Bolsheviks were in control of the Russian imperial apparatus and trying to impose Russian imperial power on Ukraine, which Ukrainian nationalists of all stripes opposed. No Ukrainian nationalists were anti-Slav because Ukrainians were Slavs and saw themselves as Slavs. There were Ukrainian antisemites, but probably no more than Russian antisemites in Russia (or Soviet antisemites in Ukraine). Vynnychenko, after assuming power, moved to quash Ukrainian antisemitism. In fact, Vynnychenko said, ""the Ukrainian government will actively fight anti-Semitism and all occurrences of Bolshevism."

The bottom line is that, while Nazis in Germany and some Ukrainian nationalists in Ukraine might share some beliefs, Nazism in no substantive way was invented in Ukraine and exported to Germany.

 

[Go Bama]

As with any debate, the indispensable first step is to define your terms. (Otherwise you run the risk of wasting time talking past each other).
To say, "Nazism" was born in Ukraine, but I am not at all sure anybody in Ukraine in the 1910s or 1920s (which seems to be the age of your grandfather's birth) would fit the category "Nazi." Nationalist? Sure, but not Nazi. Nazi was an ideology stemming from socialism, public-private partnership in the economy, coupled with extreme nationalism, a chauvinistic view of one's own nation, a hyperaggressive foreign policy, "scapegoat" internal ethnicities, contempt for liberal democracy and in favor of a strong leader. (Wikipedia defines it this way: "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship, fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism, anti-Romani sentiment, scientific racism, white supremacy, Nordicism, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed.")
I do not think either definition applies in its entirety to Ukrainian nationalists in the 1910s or 1920s. I would wager that some of these planks applied to some Ukrainian nationalists of the era, but the UPR in 1917 acted quickly to establish the Tsentralna Rada (Central Council) as a legislative authority, something no real Nazi would have done. They were anti-communist, but mostly because the Bolsheviks were in control of the Russian imperial apparatus and trying to impose Russian imperial power on Ukraine, which Ukrainian nationalists of all strips opposed. No Ukrainian nationalists were anti-Slav because Ukrainians were Slavs and saw themselves as Slavs. There were Ukrainian antisemites, but probably no more than Russian antisemites in Russia (or Soviet antisemites in Ukraine). Vynnychenko, after assuming power, moved to quash Ukrainian antisemitism. In fact, Vynnychenko said, ""the Ukrainian government will actively fight anti-Semitism and all occurrences of Bolshevism."

The bottom line is that, while Nazis in Germany and some Ukrainian nationalists in Ukraine might share some beliefs, Nazism in no substantive way was invented in Ukraine and exported to Germany.

TW, your depth of knowledge about European history is truly impressive.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

As with any debate, the indispensable first step is to define your terms. (Otherwise you run the risk of wasting time talking past each other).
To say, "Nazism" was born in Ukraine, but I am not at all sure anybody in Ukraine in the 1910s or 1920s (which seems to be the age of your grandfather's birth) would fit the category "Nazi." Nationalist? Sure, but not Nazi. Nazi was an ideology stemming from socialism, public-private partnership in the economy, coupled with extreme nationalism, a chauvinistic view of one's own nation, a hyperaggressive foreign policy, "scapegoat" internal ethnicities, contempt for liberal democracy and in favor of a strong leader. (Wikipedia defines it this way: "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and the parliamentary system. It incorporates a dictatorship, fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, anti-Slavism, anti-Romani sentiment, scientific racism, white supremacy, Nordicism, social Darwinism and the use of eugenics into its creed.")
I do not think either definition applies in its entirety to Ukrainian nationalists in the 1910s or 1920s. I would wager that some of these planks applied to some Ukrainian nationalists of the era, but the UPR in 1917 acted quickly to establish the Tsentralna Rada (Central Council) as a legislative authority, something no real Nazi would have done. They were anti-communist, but mostly because the Bolsheviks were in control of the Russian imperial apparatus and trying to impose Russian imperial power on Ukraine, which Ukrainian nationalists of all stripes opposed. No Ukrainian nationalists were anti-Slav because Ukrainians were Slavs and saw themselves as Slavs. There were Ukrainian antisemites, but probably no more than Russian antisemites in Russia (or Soviet antisemites in Ukraine). Vynnychenko, after assuming power, moved to quash Ukrainian antisemitism. In fact, Vynnychenko said, ""the Ukrainian government will actively fight anti-Semitism and all occurrences of Bolshevism."

The bottom line is that, while Nazis in Germany and some Ukrainian nationalists in Ukraine might share some beliefs, Nazism in no substantive way was invented in Ukraine and exported to Germany.

Thank you, Professor White!

 

[jthomas666]

Family history. One of my grandfather's was Ukrainian. He later migrated to Germany were he said he seen the same political ideology taking hold that he had seen in Ukraine. Eventually, he was fortunate enough to make it to America. When my dad went off to WW2, grandpa's instructions to him were, "tell them not to stop at Germany's border."

What is the link between this and "young Americans dying in another propaganda war"?

 

[Tidelines]

What is the link between this and "young Americans dying in another propaganda war"?

You think Ukrainians will be flying those F16s. About the same as North Veitnam pilots flew those Russian Migs. Same with the anti-missile systems? Ukrainians aren't manning and maintaining them. And if Nato goes to war with Russia there will be plenty of Americans die. We are in a bigger trouble than most know with that situation, as well as China and Taiwan. I can't imagine Harris dealing with those conflicts.

 

[jthomas666]

You think Ukrainians will be flying those F16s. About the same as North Veitnam pilots flew those Russian Migs. Same with the anti-missile systems? Ukrainians aren't manning and maintaining them. And if Nato goes to war with Russia there will be plenty of Americans die. We are in a bigger trouble than most know with that situation, as well as China and Taiwan. I can't imagine Harris dealing with those conflicts.

1. This is your first mention of F-16s; hence the first time anyone knew what you were talking about wrt Americans dying.

2. Why do you believe that Americans will be flying the F-16s?

First Ukrainian pilots graduate from F-16 training in US

More pilots to complete their training this summer

www.voanews.com

 

[Go Bama]

You think Ukrainians will be flying those F16s. About the same as North Veitnam pilots flew those Russian Migs. Same with the anti-missile systems? Ukrainians aren't manning and maintaining them. And if Nato goes to war with Russia there will be plenty of Americans die. We are in a bigger trouble than most know with that situation, as well as China and Taiwan. I can't imagine Harris dealing with those conflicts.

I’m starting to wonder if you are a bot. Some of this makes no sense.

 

[Tidelines]

1. This is your first mention of F-16s; hence the first time anyone knew what you were talking about wrt Americans dying.

2. Why do you believe that Americans will be flying the F-16s?

First Ukrainian pilots graduate from F-16 training in US

More pilots to complete their training this summer

www.voanews.com

Hadn't seen that article. I'm not a Voice of America reader. I stand corrected on the pilots, thank you. My point was eventually this could well be a war America will be directly involved in. Does Harris have the negotiating skills to keep us out of war. I don't believe so.

 

[Tideflyer]

Not a single American service member has lost their life in Ukraine.

Well, certainly none that we know of. With all that American equipment and weapons systems on the ground, to think that we have no advisers in country would be rather naive IMO. Not saying that we’ve lost anybody, but I seriously doubt that if we had that the administration would be shouting it from the rooftops.