Most people love Cardinal Robert Sarah and absolutely want him to be pope, but his age is a bit of a problem here. If we can find a younger version of him out there, I think it would be fantastic.
The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I
- Thread starter CrimsonJazz
- Start date
Since sola scriptura is, itself, unbiblical, your point kinda fails right off the bat, mate.
Nonsense. You do realize that one of the reasons Vatican II happened was because the church wanted to foster unity with other denominations, right? Yes, it's true that Catholics believe they are experiencing the "fullness of the faith" as opposed to other denominations, but that's pretty much how most Christians feel about their preferred flavor.
Yes, I've read these tired old apologetics more times than I can recall. Believe me, ever since my evangelical friends found out I was finally becoming a Christian but opting to become Catholic, the verbal biscuits start flying immediately. It was mostly respectful, of course; we've been friends for a long time and a good healthy debate over beers can be fun so long as everyone understands the rules. It was the countless barrage of emails with links to sites like this that got annoying. If a poor argument doesn't work the first time, it won't work the hundredth time, either. Some people just don't get that. Eventually, I figured out who I can and can't discuss this with.
"Tired old apologetics". Okay. I could say the same about the Catholic arguments as well.
We will have to agree to disagree because you will not convince me, and I will not convince you.
We will have to agree to disagree because you will not convince me, and I will not convince you.
With all due respect, depending on which side you're on will dictate if an "argument" is tired and weak. I'm Christian (Evangelical/Protestant, etc), and my wife's side of the family is Catholic. We've long stopped discussing religion because after my wife left the Catholic church, my mother-in-law and father-in-law went on a mission to "get her back" and "tell me" how wrong I was. I'm no scholar, but I study the Bible, history, and not just what I believe, but also what others believe as well. I've discussed and debated with many Catholics, and I've yet to have one give me an argument on the principled things we were discussing that didn't have major, major theological holes in it. So for some, the "apologetics" that come from the Catholic church are just as "tiring" and just as "old" and very "poor". Many times, it's just best to agree to disagree and move on...
And we’re seeing why I quit discussing religion forever ago. I mean, I only have a masters degree in it and wrote a thesis under one of the world’s least Greek grammarians, but I don’t know much about it.
More precisely, nothing persuade anyone who doesn’t wish to be persuaded, nobody has a Monopoly on that.
You can always tell the religious viewpoint based on whatever the fixation is.
And as a reminder, none of us is unbiased and objective, regardless of how much we may think we are; there is just the reality that all bias is not equally biased.
More precisely, nothing persuade anyone who doesn’t wish to be persuaded, nobody has a Monopoly on that.
You can always tell the religious viewpoint based on whatever the fixation is.
And as a reminder, none of us is unbiased and objective, regardless of how much we may think we are; there is just the reality that all bias is not equally biased.
Just to be clear, my post should not be seen as attacking anyone or even necessarily any viewpoint. It’s just I realized a long time ago how futile discussions were. They are more like exchanges at the dinner table on the television show “All in the Family” than they are discussions.
As a friend of mine has always said, "No one comes to the Bible without baggage and biases".
Sounds like you understand exactly where I was coming from. If I made some generalization like, "mainline protestants believe anyone who rejects Luther is going straight to hell", you would be quick to refute such an asinine statement (and justifiably so.) I got the full-court press from fundamentalists who, as far as I can tell, genuinely believe when they told me I was going straight to hell for the choice I was making. So I listened to their arguments and found them lacking and after the millionth time, I can assure you they were quite "old" and "tired" (not to mention superficial at times and with very little historical backing.)
As for your story about your relatives, believe me when I say that there is nothing more insufferable than a poorly catechized cradle-Catholic who wants to jump into the apologetics biz. One of the most jarring thing about going to church early on was how incredibly ignorant most of these fine folks were. (I would later realize that there's one thing Catholics, Protestants and Evangelicals have in common: their average pew-sitters were just that: average. They know practically nothing of church history and a shocking number of them couldn't properly defend their beliefs if you put a gun to their heads.) This, of course, raises a very interesting question: why do they believe something they can't even begin to defend? This is a good question all Christians should take a hard look at.
Anyway, I do have an academic background in world religion and it's interesting to me that as an agnostic for so many years, I knew far more about the church and the Bible than 95% of the people who went to church every Sunday. I could sometimes be a bit insufferable myself as I would get into religious discussions with people, but my comeuppance would come in the form of a humiliating defeat at the hands of a very practiced theologian and skilled debater who understood far more than I did. He was able to carefully craft arguments that not only included established theological theory, but also philosophical principles that meshed together very well. Sure, I was familiar with Aquinas and Augustine and had read some of their works, but I had never really attempted to understand deeply enough to apply those principles to what I knew and this was my undoing.
Anyhoo, I now consider myself a know-nothing at this point because I've had to start over and rebuild what I think I know, only this time carefully crafting everything around all of Gods gifts: Faith, The Bible, Holy Tradition, the witness and knowledge of the Early Church Fathers and, of course, everything I learned in college. It's going to be an interesting journey.
Oh, and by the way, I got the sense that my post left you a bit miffed. I wanted to point out that this was hardly my intention and if it offended you, I do apologize. Sometimes my posts hit a bit harder than I intended because I'm usually in a hurry and don't really have time to sit a craft a well-written response. (I'm usually posting while I'm waiting on a fax or someone to call me so I can get the information I need to get back to work.) My posts can be a little blunt, but it isn't on purpose.
On a side note I have now gotten through four months of my year long Bible reading plan.
It is chronological so it skips around a bit. We have gotten into 2 Samuel and part of 1 Chronicles but haven’t started 1 or 2 Kings yet, which are before Chronicles. We also have knocked out Job and maybe 1/4 of the Psalms.
It has been interesting so far. A lot more violent and somewhat depraved at times with multiple wives and rape. Some of it drags, like long lists of names that go on for several chapters.
I have skipped a few days and had to catch up but I am back on track now and will try not to fall behind again. It helps the app I am using has a voice reading to me and then a woman coming on afterwards to talk about each day’s reading.
Reading the whole Bible is something I have always wanted to do but never gotten far but this system has helped. My wife died six months ago and I have tried to become more spiritual since then and have resumed attending church regularly. I still have four months until I reach the New Testament.
It is chronological so it skips around a bit. We have gotten into 2 Samuel and part of 1 Chronicles but haven’t started 1 or 2 Kings yet, which are before Chronicles. We also have knocked out Job and maybe 1/4 of the Psalms.
It has been interesting so far. A lot more violent and somewhat depraved at times with multiple wives and rape. Some of it drags, like long lists of names that go on for several chapters.
I have skipped a few days and had to catch up but I am back on track now and will try not to fall behind again. It helps the app I am using has a voice reading to me and then a woman coming on afterwards to talk about each day’s reading.
Reading the whole Bible is something I have always wanted to do but never gotten far but this system has helped. My wife died six months ago and I have tried to become more spiritual since then and have resumed attending church regularly. I still have four months until I reach the New Testament.
As it pertains to God and entrance into heaven. I go back to the man on the cross beside Jesus. He had zero concept of "Justification by faith", never had been to a "Sunday School Class", never took one communion, had zero concept of the "sanctification process", etc., yet got into heaven on his faith and faith alone in Jesus.
The amount of grace that God has to apply to believers' wrong interpretation is probably almost on the same level as the grace He has to apply for our salvation. Because there is zero chance that each Christian denomination has interpreted everything in the Bible as it was intended. The amount of grace God has to administer to us on every level of life is staggering. We think we're pretty smart, but God knew what he was doing when he termed us "sheep" in the Bible. Sheep are dumb...
The amount of grace that God has to apply to believers' wrong interpretation is probably almost on the same level as the grace He has to apply for our salvation. Because there is zero chance that each Christian denomination has interpreted everything in the Bible as it was intended. The amount of grace God has to administer to us on every level of life is staggering. We think we're pretty smart, but God knew what he was doing when he termed us "sheep" in the Bible. Sheep are dumb...
In late 2022 I passed a church and on its sign out front said "Daily devotions are better than yearly resolutions." At the time a dear friend and co-worker was battling cancer. I talked with her about the sign and suggested that we sign up for Bible in 365. We did and began the daily readings together. She passed away in Oct. 2023. I finished that year and have continued and will always continue doing it. I look forward to it each morning and would highly recommend it to everyone.
PS: I miss you Kandi
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The "good thief" has always been a fascinating character to me. Much of what we think we know about him is based on pure assumption. The Bible doesn't say one way or another if he had ever been baptized and the way he recognized Jesus makes me wonder if he didn't have at least some passing familiarity with Christ and/or His teachings. A lot of people followed Christ for at least a bit before falling away. Is it possible that this thief could have been one of them? Maybe, we'll never really know until after we shuffle off this mortal coil.
Plus, one has to admit this was a rather extenuating circumstance. Just my opinion, but this story demonstrates more of a "deathbed conversion" than the prescribed methodology for obeying God. There were many instances of Jesus forgiving the sins of people under conditions that are not particularly normative. In Mark 2:5, Jesus forgave the sins of a paralyzed man based on the faith of the people who brought him before the Lord. Again, JMO, but there are rules and then there are exceptions. Of course, God can do as He pleases; I'm certainly not going to question it. It just feels to me like one is a safer bet than the other. Sorry for the disjointed counterpoint; it's not even noon and I already have a headache. Long day is gonna be long.
I've heard a ton of arguments about the man on the cross and all of them were the interpretations of another human being. When (if) we get to heaven, we'll know for certain the correct interpretation. For those who got it wrong, will they be kept out of heaven because of that and their other wrong interpretations, or will they be let in due to their faith being genuine saving faith? Again, IMO, the level of grace God has to extend to believers (and still allow them into heaven) for wrong instances of wrong interpretations is probably staggering.
Indeed, that is certainly true. I think God will strongly weigh our intentions on the day of judgement. Those who chose obedience (whether they were "right" or not) will be granted the grace we place our faith in. The disobedient? Not so much.
Still, the pursuit of truth is very important, at least to me. I touched on this a couple weeks ago in this thread and it's worth repeating: my search for truth and understanding is what led me to Christ. I feel like a deeper understanding will lead to a deeper relationship with Him. Will that work for everyone? Obviously not; there are many paths to Jesus. I have found mine and even though some of the deeper theological concepts can be skull-splittingly difficult to understand, I feel like it is doing as intended. Which is why I enjoy conversations like this. I don't do the debate thing anymore (for reasons outlined above.) And besides, we don't know who might be lurking around here and also looking for answers. It's possible someone will see these words and make the connection they've been searching for.
For any true believer, the truth should be very important to them, and we should never stop pursuing it. However, we also need to have an understanding that just like imperfect obedience, there will be imperfect interpretation and understanding that never get corrected on this side of Heaven. That is where God's grace comes in, and grace is the foundation of our salvation.
Precisely. It's okay to accept that and continue one's search. It kind of reminds me of Wile E. Coyote. He never actually attains his goal, but is ultimately defined by his pursuit of it.
This is true but it also means we should be both wary and careful. Not saying this about you and the thread, but the “you’re biased” argument is too often thrown out by someone who can’t answer a basic point.
I am sure you remember the long year of 1998 and the Lewinsky scandal coverage on cable and network news. The networks could have saved them time, money, and refused to book any guests by simply having a guy argue with sock puppets. Because it was literally the same argument every single night for a year, no matter who was making the argument.
And it’s the same thing with religion, even specific points in Christianity. So many people will just make stuff up on the spot or revert to the familiar so that learning doesn’t take place, mostly just evasion.
Depression is attending seminary and finding out I understood far more and knew far less than when I entered.
Our internet was down Friday so I perused some books...found this one that is outstanding: The Reason for God, by Timothy Keller. Easy to read and very comprehensive. I recommend for believers and seekers alike.
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