The Future of Alabama Basketball and Anthony Grant

[bamaslaw]

I have generally always had an interest in Alabama basketball, and even when I was a kid there was always SOMETHING worth watching a team for. When I was real young, it was McDyess and Caffey, for obvious reasons. Then it was watching Roy Rodgers completely own the paint. There was a little bit of doldrums after that, but the year of Schea Cotton and Rod Grizzard and Erwin Dudley and all of them, it was exciting to watch. And the obviously the team that wasn't supposed to be any good with Chuck Davis and Pettway. Ron Steele is still one of my favorite point guards ever.

This team? I hate it for Trevor, because he can play. But the team is completely unwatchable. College basketball as a whole is on a similar track, thanks to the one and done rule - but we are just shockingly poor at the things that would have gotten me benched in high school.

Whatever the reasons, right now we are just not good enough. Period. That falls at the hands of the guy at the top. In college basketball, getting the top talent so far outranks ability as an Xs and Os coach it is not even worth debating. The guys we get are not good enough and they don't get better. It would be best for both Coach Grant and Alabama if they went in different directions.

 

[imauafan]

I have generally always had an interest in Alabama basketball, and even when I was a kid there was always SOMETHING worth watching a team for. When I was real young, it was McDyess and Caffey, for obvious reasons. Then it was watching Roy Rodgers completely own the paint. There was a little bit of doldrums after that, but the year of Schea Cotton and Rod Grizzard and Erwin Dudley and all of them, it was exciting to watch. And the obviously the team that wasn't supposed to be any good with Chuck Davis and Pettway. Ron Steele is still one of my favorite point guards ever.

This team? I hate it for Trevor, because he can play. But the team is completely unwatchable. College basketball as a whole is on a similar track, thanks to the one and done rule - but we are just shockingly poor at the things that would have gotten me benched in high school.

Whatever the reasons, right now we are just not good enough. Period. That falls at the hands of the guy at the top. In college basketball, getting the top talent so far outranks ability as an Xs and Os coach it is not even worth debating. The guys we get are not good enough and they don't get better. It would be best for both Coach Grant and Alabama if they went in different directions.

I go back further than you, I can recall (vaguely) Mike Davis, Eddie Phillips, Bobbie Lee Hurt, Ennis Whatley in the early 80s and then more clear memories of Buck Johnson, Derrick McKee, Jim Farmer, Terry Coner, etc in the mid-80s. Those were great years and I remember the excitement heading into the 1985-86 season because we had the foundation in place to make a run for the national championship. We pretty much owned the SEC that year and I think we got a bit complacent late in the year. Then we ran into a red-hot Providence team that ran us off the court. That team was coached by Rick Pitino and Billy Donovan was their point guard. They almost lost their first round game (in Birmingham, I think) but hung on to win and then went on a tear all the way to the final four. I really felt like our team that year was good enough to be in the final four. We had a very good starting lineup and then some good depth with Michael Ansley and Keith Askins. We had several games where we blew the doors off of of the opponent and hit the century mark several times. It was not uncommon for us to have 30+ point leads. One of my all-time favorite moments that year was when Keith Askins came off the bench against UT to score 15 (or 17?) straight points. The announcer during that time (Paul Kennedy?) was going more and more crazy with each basket. I believe we won that game something like 100-71. Good memories. The next year we lost several seniors and then Derrick McKee to an agent scandal and the team could not recover from those losses but then we recovered in the 1988-89 season to have a very, very good team that should have gone a long way in the tourney. That was my freshman year at UA and we peaked at the right time of the season. We were victims of one of the worst officiated games I've every seen by USA in the first round of the NCAA tourney. Had we won that game I really think we would have beaten Michigan (the eventual NC) in the next round and possibly could have gone to the final 4.

Flash forward to today, yes I agree that it is time to go in a different direction in terms of coaching.

 

[Ldlane]

Folks, the topic is about the "future". Memory lane is closed right now! I too remember, but that ain't getting anything done with this year.

 

[TexasBama]

Folks, the topic is about the "future". Memory lane is closed right now! I too remember, but that ain't getting anything done with this year.

The past is relevant to the extent that it has defined expectations. Otherwise, Shula might still be the HFBC.

 

[imauafan]

The past is relevant to the extent that it has defined expectations. Otherwise, Shula might still be the HFBC.

This was my thought process. When i read about some of the more recent memories that some of our fans have I wanted to add some older memories to show that Bama has been a very good basketball program for many years and we should have an expectation to return to that standard in the future. If a coach can't get us to where we expect to be then we need to cut ties and look for someone else that can get the job done.

 

[Ldlane]

I don't think the "expectation" has ever been lowered. That is exactly what the thread is about!

 

[BigA]

Per Coach Battle..."Having realistic expectations is also very important. Evaluating what realistic expectations are for any program in our midst is a relative proposition. Every team we have is at a different stage of development, so the realistic expectations for one may be higher or lower than another. Each of our teams at Alabama has high expectations. None of us would want it any other way. As an organization, we have high expectations for all facets of our programs."

Sounds to me Coach Battle is saying we are a basketball program in our infancy, and we need to be patient and have realistic expectations. I don't buy that. I think a realistic expectation would be making the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.

No matter how you look at it...CAG has had five years to do a job and has had very limited success. Unless, your "realistic expectation" is going to NIT!

 

[37bamagreats55]

No matter how you look at it...CAG has had five years to do a job and has had very limited success. Unless, your "realistic expectation" is going to NIT!

In his first few years, we did go to the NIT. Those expectations, at that time, were realistic. I went to most of those games and Coleman Coliseum was absolutely electric and rocking with excitement.

We played Wichita State in the finals.

The next year, we played Creighton in the first round of the NCAA Tournament and were one possession or a foul called on TR away from advancing to the second round.

We aren't improving. We're regressing. The fact is, we're not going to even make the NIT this year, while teams like Wichita State and Creighton (teams we were on the same level as years ago), have passed us with lightning bolt speed.

 

[Ldlane]

I agree. I at least expect for us to be one of the best 64 teams in the country.

Per Coach Battle..."Having realistic expectations is also very important. Evaluating what realistic expectations are for any program in our midst is a relative proposition. Every team we have is at a different stage of development, so the realistic expectations for one may be higher or lower than another. Each of our teams at Alabama has high expectations. None of us would want it any other way. As an organization, we have high expectations for all facets of our programs."

Sounds to me Coach Battle is saying we are a basketball program in our infancy, and we need to be patient and have realistic expectations. I don't buy that. I think a realistic expectation would be making the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.

No matter how you look at it...CAG has had five years to do a job and has had very limited success. Unless, your "realistic expectation" is going to NIT!

 

[RTR91]

Several have pointed to Grant's recruiting as a flaw. I'm not sure how accurate those complaints are. I looked at Rivals' ranking of every player who signed with Alabama since Grant was hired.

This is somewhat of a lengthy post. I apologize.

2009

Ben Eblen, 3* PG (Rutgers, St. John's and VCU)

2010

Kendall Durant, 3* PG (Colorado, Penn State, and Tulsa)
Trevor Releford, 4* PG (Wichita State, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas State, and Minnesota)
Jason Carter, 4* PF (Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Oklahoma State)
Carl Engstrom, C (Baylor, FSU, Georgia Tech, and Seton Hall)

2011

Rodney Cooper, 4* SG (Clemson, Georgia, and UAB)
Moussa Gueye, 4* C (Indiana, Texas, USC, and Valparaiso)
Nick Jacobs, 4* C (Clemson and Georgia)
Trevor Lacey, 5* SG (Auburn, UCONN, Kansas, Kentucky and NC State)
Retin, PG
Levi Randolph, 4# SG (Auburn, Baylor, FSU, Georgia, Miami, Ole Miss, and Vanderbilt)

2012

Devonta Pollard, 5* SF (Georgetown, LSU, Mississippi State, Missouri, and Texas)

2013

Shannon Hale, 4* PF (Tennessee)
Algie Key, 3* (Missouri State, TCU)
Jimmie Taylor, 4* PF (Auburn, Georgetown, Georgia, Miami, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Vanderbilt)

2014

Justin Coleman, 4* PG (Arkansas, Auburn, California, Kansas, Kansas State, Tennessee, Texas A&M, UAB, and Vanderbilt)
Devin Mitchell, 3* SG (Boston University, Charleston, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Georgia, Georgia State, Kansas State, Kennesaw State, La Salle, Marquette, Mercer, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Tennessee Tech, Tulsa, UAB, Vanderbilt, Virginia, Wake Forest, and Xavier)
Riley Norris, 3* SF (Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Stanford, Tennessee, UAB, and Vanderbilt)

Grant has recruited some highly ranked players. Look at their offers. Clearly, he's not alone in evaluating some of these players if Kentucky or Kansas or Baylor and others are offering scholarships.

The issue comes in what kind of players Bama is recruiting. Algie's JUCO film primarily consisted of drives and dunks. Bama appears to only sign guys that go to the basket rather than the guys that shoot the ball (the 2014 class appears to be different).

Grant has plenty of flaws, but I don't think recruiting can be counted as one. He's brought plenty of talent to the team. He's just not developed the talent.

Since the season is clearly over, I would like Grant to play our PG for next season. Whether it be Retin or Algie, put him at PG and put Trevor at SG.

 

[cjhadley]

Per Coach Battle..."Having realistic expectations is also very important. Evaluating what realistic expectations are for any program in our midst is a relative proposition. Every team we have is at a different stage of development, so the realistic expectations for one may be higher or lower than another. Each of our teams at Alabama has high expectations. None of us would want it any other way. As an organization, we have high expectations for all facets of our programs."

Sounds to me Coach Battle is saying we are a basketball program in our infancy, and we need to be patient and have realistic expectations. I don't buy that. I think a realistic expectation would be making the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.

No matter how you look at it...CAG has had five years to do a job and has had very limited success. Unless, your "realistic expectation" is going to NIT!

I would agree with him if Coach grant was in his first or second year and fans was expecting him to have the team at an unrealistic level, but this is his fifth year and they have not improved and it seems like they are getting worse as the season goes along.

 

[graydogg85]

On the topic of a potential replacement for Grant, should the school move in that directon:

This will probably never happen and I doubt it would even be considered, but what are your thoughts about Lennie Acuff at UAH? I grew up (and currently live) in the Huntsville suburbs and have followed his program from a distance, and the guy is a heck of a coach and universally regarded as a fine person as well. In 17 years at UAH his record is 308-156 and he's taken them to the Division II tournament seven times, including the last four years consecutively. They routinely win 25+ games and are typically very good offensively. In the past he's run the Princeton offense but I'm not sure if that's still the case. His teams shoot a lot of three pointers and he puts a premium on recruiting good shooters. Living in Alabama for 17+ years, he'd be well-acquainted with our in-state high schools. Not sure how he'd do regionally and nationally as a recruiter. His teams have come dangerously close to beating Alabama in exhibition games a couple of times, from what I recall.

Again, chances are very slim but I could see a lot of upside. I think the guy's a tremendous coach and teacher.

 

[BigA]

I was trying to think what our current situation was similar to. See Mike Davis/UAB (left) & Anthony Grant (right) UAB/AL records. Very similar...to Grant's credit he has faced much tougher competition. But, for the most part the SEC has been a top heavy conference for the past few years.


It is scary to think with 9 games left and the way the season has gone so far...what will his SEC record will be at end of the season. Also, double digit losses for the 5th straight season...unexplainable and disppointing!

Overall	Conf	Conf rank	Postseason		Overall	Conf	Conf rank	Postseason
15–16	7–9	T–8th	none		17–15	6–10	T–4th (W)	none
23–11	12–4	2nd	NIT 2nd Round		25–12	12–4	1st (W)	NIT Runner–up
22–11	11–5	3rd	NIT 1st Round		21–12	9–7	5th	NCAA 2nd Round
25–9	11–5	T–3rd	NIT Quarterfinals		23-13	12-6	T-2nd	NIT Quarterfinals
22–9	12–4	1st	NCAA First Four		9-13	3-6	?	?
15–16	9–7	T–5th	none
122–72	62–34				90-56	39–27
63%	64%				62%	59%

 

[WylieTexasTider]

Per Coach Battle..."Having realistic expectations is also very important. Evaluating what realistic expectations are for any program in our midst is a relative proposition. Every team we have is at a different stage of development, so the realistic expectations for one may be higher or lower than another. Each of our teams at Alabama has high expectations. None of us would want it any other way. As an organization, we have high expectations for all facets of our programs."

Sounds to me Coach Battle is saying we are a basketball program in our infancy, and we need to be patient and have realistic expectations. I don't buy that. I think a realistic expectation would be making the NCAA tournament on a consistent basis.

No matter how you look at it...CAG has had five years to do a job and has had very limited success. Unless, your "realistic expectation" is going to NIT!

Agree.. If Battle thinks 5 years is not long enough then he is a bigger fool than I thought. The job of replacing Mal is a hard one but, the fact he has not been 100% supportive of Saban and all he does, and the fact he calls out fans for Grants ineptness shows me it is time for Battle to go. No doubt he is a marketing genius but, coaching/evaluating coaches he hasn't shown me much....Of course, maybe mediocrity is ok to him as long as the fans show up...

 

[Matt0424]

Agree.. If Battle thinks 5 years is not long enough then he is a bigger fool than I thought. The job of replacing Mal is a hard one but, the fact he has not been 100% supportive of Saban and all he does, and the fact he calls out fans for Grants ineptness shows me it is time for Battle to go. No doubt he is a marketing genius but, coaching/evaluating coaches he hasn't shown me much....Of course, maybe mediocrity is ok to him as long as the fans show up...

I didn't want to be the first one to say it, but I agree with a lot of this. I know when Battle was hired it wasn't as a long term fix, but i think a change is needed sooner rather then later in that situation too. just my opinion...

 

[BamaMTA06]

I'm afraid we are about to become Arkansas

 

[Jref]

Re expectations for our basketball program:

Alabama is second only to Kentucky in winning percentage for regular season SEC games. Our expectations have been high for a long period of time.

And they should be.

 

[RTR91]

I'm afraid we are about to become Arkansas

Yep. That was one reason I was hesitant to show Grant the door. I don't want Bama to become a program that hires and fires coaches every 4-5 years. That's not going to work. However, I fear the spiral downward is only beginning if Grant stays past the 2014 season without a NCAA bid.

Re expectations for our basketball program:

Alabama is second only to Kentucky in winning percentage for regular season SEC games. Our expectations have been high for a long period of time.

And they should be.

Grant may not promote the basketball program, but this bit of information is rarely mentioned by anyone related to the program and hasn't been for years. I don't remember CMG touting it, either. It's something UA needs to promote but doesn't.

Bill Battle can talk about expectations all he wants. It's not unrealistic for any SEC school to expect a NIT bid when the NCAA Tournament has 64 teams (granted, some are conference tourney winners).

 

[JDCrimson]

Several have pointed to Grant's recruiting as a flaw. I'm not sure how accurate those complaints are. I looked at Rivals' ranking of every player who signed with Alabama since Grant was hired.

This is somewhat of a lengthy post. I apologize.

2009

Ben Eblen, 3* PG (Rutgers, St. John's and VCU)

2010

Kendall Durant, 3* PG (Colorado, Penn State, and Tulsa)
Trevor Releford, 4* PG (Wichita State, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas State, and Minnesota)
Jason Carter, 4* PF (Arkansas, Ole Miss, and Oklahoma State)
Carl Engstrom, C (Baylor, FSU, Georgia Tech, and Seton Hall)

2011

Rodney Cooper, 4* SG (Clemson, Georgia, and UAB)
Moussa Gueye, 4* C (Indiana, Texas, USC, and Valparaiso)
Nick Jacobs, 4* C (Clemson and Georgia)
Trevor Lacey, 5* SG (Auburn, UCONN, Kansas, Kentucky and NC State)
Retin, PG
Levi Randolph, 4# SG (Auburn, Baylor, FSU, Georgia, Miami, Ole Miss, and Vanderbilt)

2012

Devonta Pollard, 5* SF (Georgetown, LSU, Mississippi State, Missouri, and Texas)

2013

Shannon Hale, 4* PF (Tennessee)
Algie Key, 3* (Missouri State, TCU)
Jimmie Taylor, 4* PF (Auburn, Georgetown, Georgia, Miami, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, and Vanderbilt)

2014

Justin Coleman, 4* PG (Arkansas, Auburn, California, Kansas, Kansas State, Tennessee, Texas A&M, UAB, and Vanderbilt)
Devin Mitchell, 3* SG (Boston University, Charleston, Charlotte, Cincinnati, Georgia, Georgia State, Kansas State, Kennesaw State, La Salle, Marquette, Mercer, Ole Miss, Tennessee, Tennessee Tech, Tulsa, UAB, Vanderbilt, Virginia, Wake Forest, and Xavier)
Riley Norris, 3* SF (Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Stanford, Tennessee, UAB, and Vanderbilt)

Grant has recruited some highly ranked players. Look at their offers. Clearly, he's not alone in evaluating some of these players if Kentucky or Kansas or Baylor and others are offering scholarships.

The issue comes in what kind of players Bama is recruiting. Algie's JUCO film primarily consisted of drives and dunks. Bama appears to only sign guys that go to the basket rather than the guys that shoot the ball (the 2014 class appears to be different).

Grant has plenty of flaws, but I don't think recruiting can be counted as one. He's brought plenty of talent to the team. He's just not developed the talent.

Since the season is clearly over, I would like Grant to play our PG for next season. Whether it be Retin or Algie, put him at PG and put Trevor at SG.

I think it would be fair to go ahead and include the offer lists and star rankings of Tarrant and Kissens as well since they will be eligible next year. I think including those would only further prove your point. I didnt really know how highly regarded some of our recruits were but this shows they were well thought of by several respectable programs coming out of HS. Either we have a serious development problem or coaching strategy issue otherwise a whole bunch of programs failed to see the glass ceiling for our players in terms of their potential.

Here is what I dont understand is how we have suffered with limited depth and we have not carried a full compliment of scholarship players for much of CAG's tenure. Why on earth would you not sign more than 1 player in 2012 and that player unfortunately is no longer with you? CNS finds a way to sign a full compliment of players each season. We should be able to do that in basketball as well since transfers are easier to do obviously. As well thought of as our players were coming out of HS it really appears that we have failed in roster management and addressing positions of need. Bottoml line is we have to get better in developing these players and CAG needs to do some soul searching on how he runs his program from a game management standpoint because he cant win and draw in recruits the way he is currently doing it. I believe he can change it and will be given another year to do so but after the season he better go off somewhere and come up with a vision for this program.

 

[JDCrimson]

I agree. I at least expect for us to be one of the best 64 teams in the country.

I dont necessarily agree with this statement. There are only 34 or so at large bids in the tourney each year. So if you are not a conference tournament champion you have to be in the top 10% (300+ eligible teams) of all teams in D1 to get into the tournament and even then the selection committee looks at geographic diversity as well because they want TV ratings throughout the country. So I would argue since the rise of the mid-majors it is much more difficult to make the NCAA tournament than it was a decade ago.