Politics: General Removal of Statues Thread

[Ldlane]

So when does "My History" become "Our History"? I've always said we need more statues, landmarks, etc.... of diverse groups that make up history the history of the country. We have the Desoto Trail with Markers representing Spanish history, we have the Ft. Mims massacre reenactment, I believe there is a Red Eagle Memorial, we have a Rosa Parks statue, etc ..... or is history dead? I mean if you take down markers from one groups "history" and put up another's it becomes a circular argument on whomever's history.

 

[B1GTide]

So when does "My History" become "Our History"? I've always said we need more statues, landmarks, etc.... of diverse groups that make up history the history of the country. We have the Desoto Trail with Markers representing Spanish history, we have the Ft. Mims massacre reenactment, I believe there is a Red Eagle Memorial, we have a Rosa Parks statue, etc ..... or is history dead? I mean if you take down markers from one groups "history" and put up another's it becomes a circular argument on whomever's history.

Just get rid of them all. They serve no real purpose.

 

[92tide]

Just get rid of them all. They serve no real purpose.

how on earth would we ever be able to know what happened before

 

[Ldlane]

Just get rid of them all. They serve no real purpose.

If they've served no "real purpose" then why are we taking them down? I would say there is a certain tourism value to having them up.

 

[B1GTide]

If they've served no "real purpose" then why are we taking them down?

 

[81usaf92]

So when does "My History" become "Our History"? I've always said we need more statues, landmarks, etc.... of diverse groups that make up history the history of the country. We have the Desoto Trail with Markers representing Spanish history, we have the Ft. Mims massacre reenactment, I believe there is a Red Eagle Memorial, we have a Rosa Parks statue, etc ..... or is history dead? I mean if you take down markers from one groups "history" and put up another's it becomes a circular argument on whomever's history.

Okay I’ll pose it in a different way.... “ Do you believe it’s right for the State of Alabama having a law in place specifically targeting Birmingham (who is a 63% African American city) about their plans to sell a Confederate monument?” That’s pretty much how this “topple the monument” game started... with people who were offended peacefully looking to remove them while angry “ my history” folks wanting no discussion to be had of ever removing them.

 

[Ldlane]

Okay I’ll pose it in a different way.... “ Do you believe it’s right for the State of Alabama having a law in place specifically targeting Birmingham (who is a 63% African American city) about their plans to sell a Confederate monument?” That’s pretty much how this “topple the monument” game started... with people who were offended peacefully looking to remove them while angry “ my history” folks wanting no discussion to be had of ever removing them.

First I don't believe that it was started with Birmingham. There has been a worldwide movement of the left that started before the "Rhodes Must Fall" movement to rid the world of these icons Confederate or Colonial. If you read the Bree Newsome article earlier in the thread she talks about that movement and the connection to BLM. So to me, this isn't an isolated incident started by the defenders or opponents of Confederate Memorials. I think people have been focusing domestically too long on the Confederate statues, memorials, etc..... and was co-opted by the larger movement. I don't know that it was specifically targeting Birmingham, so I can't say that I agree or not. But, I do think history, ALL history should be protected.

When does "My History", become "Our History"?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

First I don't believe that it was started with Birmingham. There has been a worldwide movement of the left that started before the "Rhodes Must Fall" movement to rid the world of these icons Confederate or Colonial. If you read the Bree Newsome article earlier in the thread she talks about that movement and the connection to BLM. So to me, this isn't an isolated incident started by the defenders or opponents of Confederate Memorials. I think people have been focusing domestically too long on the Confederate statues, memorials, etc..... and was co-opted by the larger movement. I don't know that it was specifically targeting Birmingham, so I can't say that I agree or not. But, I do think history, ALL history should be protected.

The evidence that there's a unitary "worldwide movement" simply doesn't exist. Period...

 

[Ldlane]

The evidence that there's a unitary "worldwide movement" simply doesn't exist. Period...

Well, I don't agree.

 

[81usaf92]

First I don't believe that it was started with Birmingham. There has been a worldwide movement of the left that started before the "Rhodes Must Fall" movement to rid the world of these icons Confederate or Colonial. If you read the Bree Newsome article earlier in the thread she talks about that movement and the connection to BLM. So to me, this isn't an isolated incident started by the defenders or opponents of Confederate Memorials. I think people have been focusing domestically too long on the Confederate statues, memorials, etc..... and was co-opted by the larger movement. I don't know that it was specifically targeting Birmingham, so I can't say that I agree or not. But, I do think history, ALL history should be protected.

When does "My History", become "Our History"?

I never said it started with Birmingham not have I tried to imply that. What I’ve been saying was that ever since Dylan Roof shot up the Church in Charleston there has been a strong effort to pass legislation to prevent anyone from removing these things from Black majority cities.

 

[Ldlane]

I never said it started with Birmingham not have I tried to imply that. What I’ve been saying was that ever since Dylan Roof shot up the Church in Charleston there has been a strong effort to pass legislation to prevent anyone from removing these things from Black majority cities.

But, when does "My History" become "Our History"? Right or wrong. I mean there are only two statues that have been targets of removal from the Right-wing idiots that I can think of and that is Villa in Tucson and the Lenin statues.

 

[chanson78]

When does "My History", become "Our History"?

Roughly around the same time that "My Country" becomes "Our Country."

There are many disaffected people in this nation who do not feel that the country and laws works to include them in the so called American dream. Whether it is discrepancies in policing (African Americans being killed/detained at a disproportionate rate), discrepancies in incarceration (crack vs cocaine sentencing disparities), or tax policy (recent tax break allowed the 400 richest Americans to pay a lower tax rate than any other bracket) the system is designed as a funnel to protect the wealthy and their interests.

Why in the world would anyone who feels disaffected by the societal structures of America feel as if it is their country much less want to celebrate the history that has effectively put a system they feel is unfair in place?

 

[B1GTide]

I mean there are only two statues that have been targets of removal from the Right-wing idiots that I can think of and that is Villa in Tucson and the Lenin statues.

Maybe you don't realize this but the conservatives represent maintenance of the status quo. Conservatives protect things like this simply because tearing them down is progressive.

 

[Ldlane]

Roughly around the same time that "My Country" becomes "Our Country."

There are many disaffected people in this nation who do not feel that the country and laws works to include them in the so called American dream. Whether it is discrepancies in policing (African Americans being killed/detained at a disproportionate rate), discrepancies in incarceration (crack vs cocaine sentencing disparities), or tax policy (recent tax break allowed the 400 richest Americans to pay a lower tax rate than any other bracket) the system is designed as a funnel to protect the wealthy and their interests.

Why in the world would anyone who feels disaffected by the societal structures of America feel as if it is their country much less want to celebrate the history that has effectively put a system they feel is unfair in place?

Thanks for the honest answer! So until then we wipe out the icons of the colonial past?

 

[92tide]

Thanks for the honest answer! So until then we wipe out the icons of the colonial past?

they are not being wiped out, they are just not being revered/honored via statue. statue<>history

 

[Ldlane]

Maybe you don't realize this but the conservatives represent maintenance of the status quo. Conservatives protect things like this simply because tearing them down is progressive.

Yes I know what conservatives and liberals are and represent.

 

[B1GTide]

Yes I know what conservatives and liberals are and represent.

Well, that answers your question.

 

[chanson78]

Thanks for the honest answer! So until then we wipe out the icons of the colonial past?

I already answered earlier in the thread. I personally could care less about monuments or statues. However I do not like it when history is whitewashed. Specifically I am talking about whitewashing referring to only memorializing the things that people who put the statues/monuments up want remembered.

There are many instances where historical figures, especially from the civil war, were portrayed in ways that worked to remember only the good things that they did. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of the statues/memorials were put up during the Jim Crow era. Good riddance I say.

Now, you keep talking about the decolonization movement. These statues being removed doesn't erase the fact that the characters represented played a role in the history of our nation. Now, if all of a sudden there was a centralized movement to actually remove whole sections of history curriculums then I would actually be worried.

For example (Please don't nitpick my terrible and horribly abbreviated portrayal of the decision to navigate The Atlantic, it is done to make a joke):

People in Europe wanted a trade route to India.

Stuff happened.

The New Jamestown colony in America did things.

I think everyone would agree that "Stuff Happened" being used to replace all of the things that happened in history we don't want to remember because it might hurt someones feelings would be a tragedy. It would ensure that future generations would be guaranteed to repeat the sins of the past.

However currently in many history curriculums all across the country kids are taught the sugar coated versions of these things that aren't much better than just glossing over it with a blanket "Stuff Happened." I work in software. The only thing worse than no documentation is incorrect documentation. Telling the tale of Columbus without telling of the horrid things that he did is wrong. Wrong to the kids learning about it, wrong to the people who were dehumanized by Columbus, and wrong to the people of America who for the longest time thought he was a person worthy of their respect.

In short you are getting hung up on these physical symbols erected to help memorialize a past that often was incorrect at worst, and misleading at best.

If a statue or memorial is memorializing a history that misleads or mischaracterizes someones role in the history of our nation, is that statue or memorial doing more harm than good?

 

[seebell]

 

[Ldlane]

I already answered earlier in the thread. I personally could care less about monuments or statues. However I do not like it when history is whitewashed. Specifically I am talking about whitewashing referring to only memorializing the things that people who put the statues/monuments up want remembered.

There are many instances where historical figures, especially from the civil war, were portrayed in ways that worked to remember only the good things that they did. This is exacerbated by the fact that many of the statues/memorials were put up during the Jim Crow era. Good riddance I say.

Now, you keep talking about the decolonization movement. These statues being removed doesn't erase the fact that the characters represented played a role in the history of our nation. Now, if all of a sudden there was a centralized movement to actually remove whole sections of history curriculums then I would actually be worried.

For example (Please don't nitpick my terrible and horribly abbreviated portrayal of the decision to navigate The Atlantic, it is done to make a joke):


I think everyone would agree that "Stuff Happened" being used to replace all of the things that happened in history we don't want to remember because it might hurt someones feelings would be a tragedy. It would ensure that future generations would be guaranteed to repeat the sins of the past.

However currently in many history curriculums all across the country kids are taught the sugar coated versions of these things that aren't much better than just glossing over it with a blanket "Stuff Happened." I work in software. The only thing worse than no documentation is incorrect documentation. Telling the tale of Columbus without telling of the horrid things that he did is wrong. Wrong to the kids learning about it, wrong to the people who were dehumanized by Columbus, and wrong to the people of America who for the longest time thought he was a person worthy of their respect.

In short you are getting hung up on these physical symbols erected to help memorialize a past that often was incorrect at worst, and misleading at best.

If a statue or memorial is memorializing a history that misleads or mischaracterizes someones role in the history of our nation, is that statue or memorial doing more harm than good?

Oh and I agree. But, it’s not just about statues if you start looking past the cleansing of public spaces and start looking at the ideology of th current fringe movements like LatinX as as an example. They are garnering their own curriculum at the university level. Other minority studies Are being taught to ask for reparation, etc.... So there is this whole other fold to this issue that is happening in schools. You can look through any university catalog online and find these classes. You can look through professional educator organizations and you can find these same themes of Decolonizing the Curriculum. So it isn’t statues alone, but it’s just the beginning.