Politics: General Removal of Statues Thread

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TIDE-HSV

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Just connecting the dots!
That is exactly what I meant. Confronted with dots, the human brain is compelled to connect them, even when they're unrelated. That's what leads to all conspiracy theories. You are taking unconnected dots and constructing a theory to connect them. I see holes in "decolonization" large enough to drive fleets of trucks through...
 

Ldlane

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Crying Antifa is sort of like a "joke" right now because of the insane cries of the POTUS. But, it's happening!
 
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TIDE-HSV

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I think you are heavily influenced by where you live - Old Mexico, where colonization is still raw, and your personal heritage. In the rest of the country, the overwhelming majority of the population - other than blacks, which is a totally different situation - are descended from colonizers. The protestors are the same subset as hippie demonstrators 50 years ago. Statues are just symbols of authority. Colonialism is the furtherest thing from their minds...
 

Tidewater

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I think you are heavily influenced by where you live - Old Mexico, where colonization is still raw, and your personal heritage. In the rest of the country, the overwhelming majority of the population - other than blacks, which is a totally different situation - are descended from colonizers. The protestors are the same subset as hippie demonstrators 50 years ago. Statues are just symbols of authority. Colonialism is the furtherest thing from their minds...
Honestly, to a certain extent, it is just giving society the middle finger.
When I lived in Tiberuias Israel, a significant portion of the Jews were Soviet Jews allowed to escape the USSR.
Their teenaged kids used too spray-paint a hammer and sickle and swastikas on the walls around town.
I asked Menachem (a friend) what that was all about, he said "Israeli kids trying to get a rise out of their parents. Paint something provocative on a public wall just to stick to the older generation."
 

TIDE-HSV

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Honestly, to a certain extent, it is just giving society the middle finger.
When I lived in Tiberuias Israel, a significant portion of the Jews were Soviet Jews allowed to escape the USSR.
Their teenaged kids used too spray-paint a hammer and sickle and swastikas on the walls around town.
I asked Menachem (a friend) what that was all about, he said "Israeli kids trying to get a rise out of their parents. Paint something provocative on a public wall just to stick to the older generation."
That's exactly what I've been trying to say over and over. It's not necessary to inject spurious anti-colonial theories into it to explain youngsters being youngsters. Any statue will do...
 
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92tide

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The Jolt: John B. Gordon’s ancestors plead for his state Capitol statue’s removal

The descendants of former Gov. John B. Gordon delivered an unequivocal message for the current occupant of that office: Remove the bronze statue of him, sitting in full Confederate regalia, from the grounds of the Georgia Capitol.

In a letter sent to Gov. Brian Kemp over the weekend, the 44 ancestors of Brown wrote that the “primary purpose of the statue was to celebrate and mythologize the white supremacists of the Confederacy” and called for it to be disappeared.

“The continuing presence of this statue on public property serves to negate and undermine the past and ongoing struggle of Georgians to overcome and reverse the legacy of slavery and oppression of black Americans,” they wrote.
 

Tidewater

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Things like this are being done all over to undermine the BLM movement, made possible by the gullibility of the general populace.
I get what you are saying and it is possible.
So did BLM supporters spray-paint the statue of R. E. Lee in Richmond?
Did BLM supporters topple the statue of Francis Scott Key in San Fran?
What about the U.S. Grant statue in the same city?
Was it BLM supporters who defaced the monument in Boston to the 54th Massachusetts Infantry?
It appears that you may be judging whether a BLM activist did a particular act depends on whether you approve of the act or not. If you approve, BLM did it. If you disapprove, somebody else did it.
Or, conversely, maybe a not very well informed person (I'm trying to be kind) in west Edinbugh (30 miles away) or Stirling (2 miles away) read a Redit thread about BLM and decided to show solidarity by spray-painting the statue nearest his home: The Bruce's.
 

Tidewater

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Gordon was one of the few who rose from the rank of private to lieutenant general during the war. He was wounded five times in one day (Sharpsburg).
A man who fought against him, Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, said this:
The head of the Confederate column, General Gordon in command, and the old 'Stonewall' Jackson Brigade leading, started down into the valley which lay between us, and approached our lines. With my staff I was on the extreme right of the line, mounted on horseback, and in a position nearest the Rebel solders who were approaching our right.

"Ah, but it was a most impressive sight, a most striking picture, to see that whole army in motion to lay down the symbols of war and strife, that army which had fought for four terrible years after a fashion but infrequently known in war.

"At such a time and under such conditions I thought it eminently fitting to show some token of our feeling, and I therefore instructed my subordinate officers to come to the position of 'salute' in the manual of arms as each body of the Confederates passed before us.

"It was not a 'present arms,' however, not a 'present,' which then as now was the highest possible honor to be paid even to a president. It was the 'carry arms,' as it was then known, with musket held by the right hand and perpendicular to the shoulder. I may best describe it as a marching salute in review.

"When General Gordon came opposite me I had the bugle blown and the entire line came to 'attention,' preparatory to executing this movement of the manual successively and by regiments as Gordon's columns should pass before our front, each in turn.

"The General [Gordon] was riding in advance of his troops, his chin drooped to his breast, downhearted and dejected in appearance almost beyond description. At the sound of that machine like snap of arms, however, General Gordon started, caught in a moment its significance, and instantly assumed the finest attitude of a soldier. He wheeled his horse facing me, touching him gently with the spur, so that the animal slightly reared, and as he wheeled, horse and rider made one motion, the horse's head swung down with a graceful bow, and General Gordon dropped his swordpoint to his toe in salutation."

Chamberlain also wrote this:
"On they come with the old swinging route step and swaying battle flags. Before us in proud humiliation stood the embodiment of manhood. Thin, worn and famished, but erect and with eyes looking level into ours. Waking memories that bound us together as no other bond. Was not such manhood to be welcomed back into the Union so tested and assured? On our part not a sound of trumpet more nor roll of drum, not a cheer, nor word, nor whisper of vain glorying, nor motion of man. But an awed stillness rather and breathholding, as if it were the passing of the dead."
 

81usaf92

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I get what you are saying and it is possible.
So did BLM supporters spray-paint the statue of R. E. Lee in Richmond?
Did BLM supporters topple the statue of Francis Scott Key in San Fran?
What about the U.S. Grant statue in the same city?
Was it BLM supporters who defaced the monument in Boston to the 54th Massachusetts Infantry?
It appears that you may be judging whether a BLM activist did a particular act depends on whether you approve of the act or not. If you approve, BLM did it. If you disapprove, somebody else did it.
Or, conversely, maybe a not very well informed person (I'm trying to be kind) in west Edinbugh (30 miles away) or Stirling (2 miles away) read a Redit thread about BLM and decided to show solidarity by spray-painting the statue nearest his home: The Bruce's.
I think “My History” folks lose the right to complain with what is happening to statues when they used specific legislation to prevent communities from moving statues they don’t want to other places peacefully.


At some point you have to accept this is the result of years and years of antagonizing the black communities with these statues. When statues start being toppled for reasonable reasons that were ignored everyone wants to get their moment in so you have dummies toppling non related statues. But this all begins with the inability by the “my history” folks not wanting to hear reasonable arguments about why black communities don’t want them in their majority African American cities.
 
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Tidewater

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I think “My History” folks lose the right to complain with what is happening to statues when they used specific legislation to prevent communities from moving statues they don’t want to other places peacefully.


At some point you have to accept this is the result of years and years of antagonizing the black communities with these statues. When statues start being toppled for reasonable reasons that were ignored everyone wants to get their moment in so you have dummies toppling non related statues. But this all begins with the inability by the “my history” folks not wanting to hear reasonable arguments about why black communities don’t want them in their majority African American cities.
I get that.
Any monument makes a statement. Usually that is inscribed on it. Or, it is stated when the monument is erected.
Now, the power to mis-state that meaning and topple the monument based on that mistaken and unintended meaning, then free speech itself is impossible. Where does that power come from?
Do I get to determine what the meaning of the Democratic party is? If so, I dare say it might diverge from what Democrats themselves say the party stands for. So who gets to determine which is right?
 
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Ldlane

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I get that.
Any monument makes a statement. Usually that is inscribed on it. Or, it is stated when the monument is erected.
Now, the power to mis-state that meaning and topple the monument based on that mistaken and unintended meaning, then free speech itself is impossible. Where does that power come from?
Do I get to determine what the meaning of the Democratic party is? If so, I dare say it might diverge from what Democrats themselves say the party stands for. So who gets to determine which is right?
That is where Academia is coming into play and various movements.
 

81usaf92

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I get that.
Any monument makes a statement. Usually that is inscribed on it. Or, it is stated when the monument is erected.
Now, the power to mis-state that meaning and topple the monument based on that mistaken and unintended meaning, then free speech itself is impossible. Where does that power come from?
Do I get to determine what the meaning of the Democratic party is? If so, I dare say it might diverge from what Democrats themselves say the party stands for. So who gets to determine which is right?
So you don’t have any problem with what Montgomery (State not the city) did by passing a law where Mobile, Birmingham, and the City of Montgomery couldn’t donate a statue or move to a different place because they don’t agree with what they feel it represents towards their community? Keep in mind all 3 of those cities were predominantly white until something called... desegregation was passed.
 
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