Michigan Under Investigation For Sign Stealing

[AWRTR]

SEC coaches on helmet radios amid Michigan sign-stealing: ‘We eventually catch up’

As sideline monitoring becomes a national topic, SEC coaches weighed in on the widely-used practice of helmet communicators that can negate sign-stealing,

www.al.com

Michigan’s Connor Stalions texted he ‘stole’ signals from TV, wrote ‘Michigan Manifesto’

Sports Illustrated reports text messages between Stalions and student reveal Stalions' plans.

www.al.com

 

[colbysullivan]

The brand is still really good.

Sure, but Michigan is not the golden goose of the B1G, tOSU is.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Sure, but Michigan is not the golden goose of the B1G, tOSU is.

And as mentioned above - abruun has never been (and will never be) the cream of the SEC, yet $cam happened...

We're not talking about Northwestern or Rutgers here - we're talking about back-to-back playoff appearances by Michigan, which alone is worth many millions to the B1G.

They're a very big dog in CFB - don't think for one second the B1G doesn't know Michigan's value.

 

[colbysullivan]

And as mentioned above - abruun has never been (and will never be) the cream of the SEC, yet $cam happened...

We're not talking about Northwestern or Rutgers here - we're talking about back-to-back playoff appearances by Michigan, which alone is worth many millions to the B1G.

They're a very big dog in CFB - don't think for one second the B1G doesn't know Michigan's value.

That’s fair. I think social media backlash has changed since 2010, and Michigan is going to get more than most people expect.

 

[Elefantman]

In the meantime, the Naval Academy signal system has yet to be deciphered by Michigan.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

To me you are getting into what essentially becomes diversionary tactics.

That's quite an allegation to make, sir.

I've seen this before from other people on other subjects, as though disproving one thing disproves everything and of course it doesn't work like that.

Do you mean like when you made the following comment in this thread:

You know what's different about those games right?

Michigan didn't have a single game in which to scout either of those teams after they were scheduled...

And I pointed out that that is specifically addressed and your first response to me is to say that I'm using a diversionary tactic?

Michigan didn't lose to Georgia because they didn't have a guy stealing signs.
They lost to Georgia because they were about half as good.

It doesn't even really matter if it aided his success or not, it was a clear and blatant violation of the rules

And after being accused of diversionary tactics, it shouldn't be too difficult for you to show me where on this thread I said, "But Harbaugh didn't violate any rules."

Because I never said any such thing.

and we have what is essentially incontrovertible evidence that occurred.

We not only have evidence it occurred - we have evidence it occurred in a game you claim it didn't.

We see the guy on the sidelines (next to the head coach during the game, next to both coordinators), we see he bought tickets, there is video of people in those seats filming the sidelines, we know they broke the rules! It's not his first time being caught, he was literally in trouble earlier this year so it's become a pattern as well.

No disagreement here.

Everything else is basically noise, same with Barry Bonds.

I'm not sure you got the point there, but whatever at this point.

The point about Bonds concerned the pontificating pundits who think they know what day he began using, which was used as a parallel to THOSE OF YOU ON THIS THREAD (not just you) who think you know when this began and have now taken speculation to absurd conclusions only to - instead of saying, "okay, I missed that"...accuse me of using diversionary tactics.

All we need to know is he cheated... and those of us that are reasonable and logical about it can look and figure out pretty easily when he did because his body changed. It's not that complicated, we don't need to make it that complicated.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

Some of you have chosen to make a big deal about "well, he never lost less than 3 games and then this." Except he lost 2 games in 2015 because of a Pick Six (Utah) and his own bungling call on a punt against Sparty; that was a 5-7 team the year before, so it's not like he didn't show immense improvement. The next year, he lost on a last play field goal to Iowa and a controversial fourth down spot to Ohio State. Wins in both of those put him in the playoff in 2016. It's not like Hugh Freeze, where he went from a horrible team to an SEC contender.


I have no idea when it began - and neither does anyone else here. We can SPECULATE, yes. But we don't know. We don't even know at this point if this was the first guy or if this goes back further.

As far as breaking rules, of course. And let's be honest: we all know why he did it, and we all know why there's a rule against it. I'm not disputing any of those specific points. He did it because if nothing else he THOUGHT it would give him an advantage.

All I've said otherwise is I've seen enough sports through the years that if anybody thinks Michigan is singing a solo, they're in for a surprise...unless they want to admit Harbaugh is some sort of three-dimensional thinker and concocted an idea nobody else would have thought of. Folks give the Houston Astros hell over the garbage cans and yelling - but they ignore the Cardinals using computers, and the Red Sox and Yankees got off light on that whole thing, too.

If Purdue was doing this, everyone would laugh and say, "Well, they need all the help they can get." Except for Ohio State, of course, who would then demand the 2018 result be reversed.

It's only a story because it's a CFP contender.

And I reiterate - I never denied Harbaugh broke a written rule.

 

[CajunCrimson]

When the back and forth argument breakdowns are becoming more important than the topic, it’s time to move on.

No one wants to read that stuff. Y’all PM that stuff. And you can decide who wins. But please don’t clog the threads.

 

[81usaf92]

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

Some of you have chosen to make a big deal about "well, he never lost less than 3 games and then this." Except he lost 2 games in 2015 because of a Pick Six (Utah) and his own bungling call on a punt against Sparty; that was a 5-7 team the year before, so it's not like he didn't show immense improvement. The next year, he lost on a last play field goal to Iowa and a controversial fourth down spot to Ohio State. Wins in both of those put him in the playoff in 2016. It's not like Hugh Freeze, where he went from a horrible team to an SEC contender.


I have no idea when it began - and neither does anyone else here. We can SPECULATE, yes. But we don't know. We don't even know at this point if this was the first guy or if this goes back further.

As far as breaking rules, of course. And let's be honest: we all know why he did it, and we all know why there's a rule against it. I'm not disputing any of those specific points. He did it because if nothing else he THOUGHT it would give him an advantage.

All I've said otherwise is I've seen enough sports through the years that if anybody thinks Michigan is singing a solo, they're in for a surprise...unless they want to admit Harbaugh is some sort of three-dimensional thinker and concocted an idea nobody else would have thought of. Folks give the Houston Astros hell over the garbage cans and yelling - but they ignore the Cardinals using computers, and the Red Sox and Yankees got off light on that whole thing, too.

If Purdue was doing this, everyone would laugh and say, "Well, they need all the help they can get." Except for Ohio State, of course, who would then demand the 2018 result be reversed.

It's only a story because it's a CFP contender.

And I reiterate - I never denied Harbaugh broke a written rule.

You know I’ve seen so many people up in arms about Deflategate, Spygate, Astros, and Clemson sign stealing but they never consider two things… 1) the team that outed them knew for a long time and 2) way more teams than them did it.

Take Deflate gate for example…. The Colts knew for over two months that New England had under inflated balls and never sounded the alarm to the nfl. They waited until during the AFCCG to bring it up. The media frenzy centered on the Patriots about PSI yet when the Wells report and evidence came out everyone ignored that quarterbacks like Rodgers and Roethlisberger overinflated the balls.

I’ve always found when cheating is uncovered that everyone comes to the incorrect conclusion that only that team cheats. It’s like everyone acts like only Auburn and the other SEC teams were playing players and Alabama was innocent despite us having a history of sanctions due to us playing players.

Sign stealing is nothing new and I guarantee you that pretty much everyone the top 15 has some version of sign stealing. The reason that this is a story is because Michigan is blowing people out and Harbaugh makes a great villain

 

[AlexanderFan]

The downside of headset communications is that only the QB gets the call. You have to huddle up to get the play out to the players. And it is harder to switch plays after seeing the defensive alignment.

So, teams will have to choose between speed and headset communications. Unless someone implements something that would also allow other players to get the calls on wrist bands or something similar.

This is the reason offenses haven’t done this: the advantage gained by going fast has far outweighed anything else. There will probably be 12 sets of clowns doing semaphore, full body sign language, and interpretive dance before these offensive “geniuses” go back to traditional football.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Some of y'all are acting like Harbaugh cannot win without this cheating.

Does this help? Of course, or they wouldn't be doing it.

But come on, it's not like Harbaugh is winning at Rutgers or averaged five losses per year before...

 

[dayhiker]

@KrAzY3 and @selmaborntidefan
Cajun just told yall to knock it off. I deleted one post. Yall take it to PM if yall want to debate this further.

 

[KrAzY3]

@KrAzY3 and @selmaborntidefan
Cajun just told yall to knock it off. I deleted one post. Yall take it to PM if yall want to debate this further.

I literally only replied to a single sentence, and for the record I will reiterate I did not state anything that was factually incorrect. Am I not allowed to set the record straight if a poster claims I made a false statement publicly? That post is still there for the record.

Anyway, I tried to get back on track to my original point, which was not a reply to Selma and was just a general observation. I wont' say anything on the topic though since I guess I'm not allowed but I was trying to be on point and how can I help it if another poster decides to start dissecting everything I say (which for the record I don't have a problem with). But yes if I have anything further to say I'll just message him on Facebook since we're friends there, heh.

 

[dayhiker]

I literally only replied to a single sentence, and for the record I will reiterate I did not state anything that was factually incorrect. Am I not allowed to set the record straight if a poster claims I made a false statement publicly? That post is still there for the record.

Anyway, I tried to get back on track to my original point, which was not a reply to Selma and was just a general observation. I wont' say anything on the topic though since I guess I'm not allowed but I was trying to be on point and how can I help it if another poster decides to start dissecting everything I say (which for the record I don't have a problem with)?

Feel free to repost your thoughts on the topic. You're absolutely allowed to do that and you know it. Cajun told yall to knock it off and 3 posts later you bring it back up. Yes, it was the first sentence, but it shouldn't have been in there. Cajun can undelete it if he disagrees with how I handled it.

 

[KrAzY3]

Feel free to repost your thoughts on the topic. You're absolutely allowed to do that and you know it. Cajun told yall to knock it off and 3 posts later you bring it back up. Yes, it was the first sentence, but it shouldn't have been in there. Cajun can undelete it if he disagrees with how I handled it.

I'm fine with leaving it be. The subject isn't important enough to step on anyone's toes. I'll just take this as an opportunity to say that I hope when I have a discussion here it never comes across as personal, to you, Selma, or anyone else. I know I can seem belligerent, but my intensity is generally reserved for the topic not the individuals.

I genuinely like a lot of people here and enjoy discussing things with them, but my brother did tell me I could argue with a fence post... So, if I cross a line I ask people understand it's almost always driven by enthusiasm and not animosity.

 

[dayhiker]

I'm fine with leaving it be. The subject isn't important enough to step on anyone's toes. I'll just take this as an opportunity to say that I hope when I have a discussion here it never comes across as personal, to you, Selma, or anyone else. I know I can seem belligerent, but my intensity is generally reserved for the topic not the individuals.

I genuinely like a lot of people here and enjoy discussing things with them, but my brother did tell me I could argue with a fence post... So, if I cross a line I ask people understand it's almost always driven by enthusiasm and not animosity.

Thanks. It didn't feel personal to me. My reaction was solely, dangit, he just said stop. If selma had of been the first response, his would have been deleted too.

 

[Guido]

I heard this morning that TCU knew that BLUE was sign stealing and that they were using dummy signals to confuse them. No way to know but I wonder if if this deal actually had an effect on any game. Whether it did or not doesn't matter, still against the rules. Come on playoff committee, do the right thing because Lord knows the Big 10 won't.

 

[CajunCrimson]

I'm fine with leaving it be. The subject isn't important enough to step on anyone's toes. I'll just take this as an opportunity to say that I hope when I have a discussion here it never comes across as personal, to you, Selma, or anyone else. I know I can seem belligerent, but my intensity is generally reserved for the topic not the individuals.

I genuinely like a lot of people here and enjoy discussing things with them, but my brother did tell me I could argue with a fence post... So, if I cross a line I ask people understand it's almost always driven by enthusiasm and not animosity.

I heard a comment years ago, the third response is always personal.

When back and forth gets to the third response, it almost always becomes personal. It’s just life.

Not trying to keep anyone from posting. Just trying to not clog this up with 1000 word posts that people just don’t read anyway.

When it gets to that point, just PM each other.

So, Michigan cheated, huh ?

 

[dayhiker]

I heard this morning that TCU knew that BLUE was sign stealing and that they were using dummy signals to confuse them. No way to know but I wonder if if this deal actually had an effect on any game. Whether it did or not doesn't matter, still against the rules. Come on playoff committee, do the right thing because Lord knows the Big 10 won't.

That makes me think of "The Imitation Game," where they've broken the Enigma code, but can't play their hand too often or the Germans will know. They let an attack on a convoy happen. As a further side note, the portions on Alan Turning were really interesting in the Walter Isaacson book, The Innovators.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

You know I’ve seen so many people up in arms about Deflategate, Spygate, Astros, and Clemson sign stealing but they never consider two things… 1) the team that outed them knew for a long time and 2) way more teams than them did it.

Take Deflate gate for example…. The Colts knew for over two months that New England had under inflated balls and never sounded the alarm to the nfl. They waited until during the AFCCG to bring it up. The media frenzy centered on the Patriots about PSI yet when the Wells report and evidence came out everyone ignored that quarterbacks like Rodgers and Roethlisberger overinflated the balls.

I’ve always found when cheating is uncovered that everyone comes to the incorrect conclusion that only that team cheats. It’s like everyone acts like only Auburn and the other SEC teams were playing players and Alabama was innocent despite us having a history of sanctions due to us playing players.

Sign stealing is nothing new and I guarantee you that pretty much everyone the top 15 has some version of sign stealing. The reason that this is a story is because Michigan is blowing people out and Harbaugh makes a great villain

The same thing happened with the Saints and Bountygate.

Does anyone who has followed football for more than a season not know deep down that teams have a whole "we can win the game if we knock out player X"? And they attempt to do so LEGITIMATELY in the sense of "oh, that's football." Or you can do like MSU did a few years ago when they were diving at Tua's knees and throw caution to the wind. There's a reason you're supposed to pull your starters when the game is out of hand - stuff like that.

But here's the thing: if the Saints had not won the Super Bowl, it would have been 1/100th the story that it became.

Oh and here's the other thing that kinda gets me: MOST of these scandals are exposed when someone who was on one team goes to another team and then suddenly starts crying about it.

What exposed Spygate? A former Patriots assistant (Eric Mangini) became a head coach and suddenly had an ethical problem with what he had participated in when it helped him.

What exposed Bountygate? A former Saints guy who participated in was mad that he got fired. Oh, and the Saints did it for two years after winning the Super Bowl and didn't win, too.

What exposed the Astros? A former player who was suddenly on a division rival after getting let go - NOW he had a problem with it, but he was just fine winning a ring with it.

What exposed the Red Sox? A two-faced hypocrite (Cora, who had been with the Astros and was now managing the Red Sox) got mad the Yankees pounded his team for 29 runs and said the most valuable acquisition the Yankees made was Carlos Beltran (also of the 2017 Astros) in the front office.


I'm sorry, but it's difficult for me to feel sorry for the "I only became a whistleblower after reaping the benefits while cheating myself" by someone who then tries to hide behind the "integrity of the game" excuse.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

Some of y'all are acting like Harbaugh cannot win without this cheating.

Does this help? Of course, or they wouldn't be doing it.

But come on, it's not like Harbaugh is winning at Rutgers or averaged five losses per year before...

View attachment 37738

This is the larger point I was making: I think the "he went from 3 losses a season to the playoff" is a tad bit arbitrary. I'm not saying it's WRONG, it just feels more like connecting dots that may or may not actually be there. In

He had two 11-1 seasons at San Diego State in his 2nd and 3rd year.
He was 12-1 at STANFORD for Pete's sake.
He took a team to the precipice of a Super Bowl title and made trips to the NFC title game his first three years in the NFL. This may not set well, but he did far better as an NFL coach than Saban did.

In his 10-3 seasons everyone is citing as evidence, he was two plays from a one-loss season twice and one play from a one-loss regular season the third. So he was already "close" as it was. Sign stealing didn't transform Michigan from the last year of DuBose with us to a playoff team.

One other point: people would rest easier with an NZAA punishment if that organization hadn't spent half a century making the most ridiculous and arbitrary punishments imaginable with the straightest of faces. If they merely had a track record of consistency of application of punishment, they'd still be an oversight body.

But Jerry Tarkanian's observation that they were so mad at Kentucky they were giving Cleveland State an extra two years' of probation rings more true today than it did when he said it, too.