Hamas attacks Israel - Part 2

[selmaborntidefan]

Also, doesn’t this mean Trump has to return the Nobel prize he didn’t even bother to win?

 

[crimsonaudio]

It is more complicated than that. The most horrific killings on October 7 were not done by Hamas, but by non-hamas Palestinians who crossed the fence that was breached by Hamas.
And, yes, Hamas is the scum of the earth, but situation over there is very complex

This is why my heart doesn't bleed in situations like this. It's way too complex to try to discern who did / supports / wants what

I hate seeing innocent people suffer, but there's a lot of 'innocent' people over there who deserve to suffer the consequences of their actions.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

But this was the greatest week of ceasefires in the history of ceasefires!

 

[Tidewater]

It is more complicated than that. The most horrific killings on October 7 were not done by Hamas, but by non-hamas Palestinians who crossed the fence that was breached by Hamas.
And, yes, Hamas is the scum of the earth, but situation over there is very complex

Fair enough, but Hamas is both the tone-setter and the enforcer of radicalism amongst the Palestinians.

 

[CrimsonNagus]

Official statement from the brianwashed MAGAs:

Trump is the hero whom all of Palestine and Israel celebrated in the streets. He ended the war and brought peace to the region. This is a completely new war, and leaders in the region are already looking towards Trump to once again restore peace to the Holy Land. He is a glorious leader and a glorious negotiator. Without his leadership, this region would not have had such a prolonged period of peace. All Hail Trump, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, how majestic is His name!

 

[CrimsonJazz]

The Middle East Situation Explained in 13 Seconds.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1981339824771531191

Now before anyone loses his or her mind, let me say that I KNOW this is not 100% accurate and the issue is far more complicated. Nevertheless, this made me laugh so hard and it really needed sharing.

 

[Tidewater]

A military lawyer pointed this out to me.

ICRC Rule 15.​

Principle of Precautions in Attack​

Rule 15. In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

 

[some_al_fan]

A military lawyer pointed this out to me.

ICRC Rule 15.​

Principle of Precautions in Attack​

Rule 15. In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

The biggest issue for Israel is how to define a civilian.
If someone is currently sitting at home and watching TV, but he was carrying arms last night or inflicted harm on the Israeli population on October 7.
If a civilian object, such as a school, is used as an entry point into a Hamas tunnel (multiple videos show that), can it continue to be a civilian object?
In a hostage recovery operation several months ago, a prominent Palestinian (and “civilian”) family was holding hostages that were released by the Israeli special forces. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_rescue_and_massacre )

And so on….

 

[Tidewater]

The biggest issue for Israel is how to define a civilian.
If someone is currently sitting at home and watching TV, but he was carrying arms last night or inflicted harm on the Israeli population on October 7.
If a civilian object, such as a school, is used as an entry point into a Hamas tunnel (multiple videos show that), can it continue to be a civilian object?
In a hostage recovery operation several months ago, a prominent Palestinian (and “civilian”) family was holding hostages that were released by the Israeli special forces. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_rescue_and_massacre )

And so on….

The lawyer had an answer.
Soldier in uniform engaging in warlike acts? Legit target..
Civilian in civilian clothes engaging in civilian activities? Protected.
Civilian in civilian clothes engaging in warlike acts (emplacing a roadside bomb)? Legit target (but only while engaging in warlike acts).

As for Hamas putting tunnels under schools are legitimate targets, as long as the officer approving a strike considers the military necessity outweighs the CD risk.

 

[some_al_fan]

Civilian in civilian clothes engaging in civilian activities? Protected.
Civilian in civilian clothes engaging in warlike acts (emplacing a roadside bomb)? Legit target (but only while engaging in warlike acts).

How can that work in practice?

Speaking of the US military… We are currently destroying boats in South America without doing any checks on what kind of uniform their sailors wear. Are we breaking the ICRC rules?

 

[Tidewater]

How can that work in practice?

Speaking of the US military… We are currently destroying boats in South America without doing any checks on what kind of uniform their sailors wear. Are we breaking the ICRC rules?

Could be. But that may one of those thiongs that the commander approving the strike knows something the public does not. And the government tends not to talk about things that would reveal sources and methods. So if the US were to announce, "We have a guy in the inner circle of the dictator and he has confirmed multiple times that these boats are carrying fentanyl and the one that left Colombia at 9:15 pm was carrying fentanyl and weapons." Announce that and the dictator will find your source and kill him. If t he US were to announce, "We have a SIGINT report that clearly showed that the boat leaving at 9:15 pm was carrying fentanyl and weapons," then the bad guys will stop using that kind of radio and you lose the source.
Regardless, the lack of an announcement showing sources and methods does not prove that sources do not exist or that SOUTHCOM has no idea what was on the boat.

 

[Tidewater]

It occurred to me that there is a precedent for US (and British) warships intercepting neutral ships on the high seas beyond territorial water and even executing the captain of the vessel.
Anti-slaver patrols off the coast of Africa. Commanding a vessel capable/rigged for the slave trade (even if the ship had not yet picked up its "cargo"). The ship would be seized and the captain put on trial in the US, even if his destination was Havana or Sao Paolo.

 

[Bazza]

The biggest issue for Israel is how to define a civilian.
If someone is currently sitting at home and watching TV, but he was carrying arms last night or inflicted harm on the Israeli population on October 7.
If a civilian object, such as a school, is used as an entry point into a Hamas tunnel (multiple videos show that), can it continue to be a civilian object?
In a hostage recovery operation several months ago, a prominent Palestinian (and “civilian”) family was holding hostages that were released by the Israeli special forces. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuseirat_rescue_and_massacre )

And so on….

Que "American Sniper" and "The Hurt Locker".........

R.I.P. Chris Kyle, 1974-2013

 

[Bamaro]

A military lawyer pointed this out to me.

ICRC Rule 15.​

Principle of Precautions in Attack​

Rule 15. In the conduct of military operations, constant care must be taken to spare the civilian population, civilians and civilian objects. All feasible precautions must be taken to avoid, and in any event to minimize, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.

That would also be a very good post in the Ukraine thread.

 

[some_al_fan]

It occurred to me that there is a precedent for US (and British) warships intercepting neutral ships on the high seas beyond territorial water and even executing the captain of the vessel.
Anti-slaver patrols off the coast of Africa. Commanding a vessel capable/rigged for the slave trade (even if the ship had not yet picked up its "cargo"). The ship would be seized and the captain put on trial in the US, even if his destination was Havana or Sao Paolo.

Putting on trial is not the same precedent as destroying the boat without any public investigation

 

[Tidewater]

Putting on trial is not the same precedent as destroying the boat without any public investigation

The trial was for the American citizen they caught commanding a slave ship.
For the Brazilians and Spaniards they caught, I think they executed the captain, stranded the crew and burned the ship.

I regards to today's "pirates"/drug runners, there is a very real danger they will get away if not stopped. Plus, if an F-18 has no weapon but a 250-pound bomb (or a Hellfire missile) and they are aiming for the drugs themselves and the "civilians" onboard are collateral damage, then the act would be consistent with the ICRC rule.