Off-season dive into CNS's, pre-Alabama Years (comparing them to CKD's flaw of "Not being prepared" in some games)

[4Q Basket Case]

Two things that aren't factored into the comparisons of CNS and CKD are NIL and the transfer portal. Those things have changed the landscape of college football so much that it's almost like comparing apples to oranges.

Apples to I-beams. No blue font.

 

[Coach D]

Interesting pre Alabama comparison. Would like to compare current top 5 coaches to him to make it a little more even now. I didn’t realize he had as little P5 as he did, just seemed like more.

He’s trying, he’s shown he is understanding and adapting as he and Alabama can within their limitations. Might be the hardest time in history to show coaching ability vs university buying ability and stacking rosters.

 

[CoolBreeze]

I love this board man. Thanks guys!

 

[GP for Bama]

Comparing a coach's early years can be very deceiving .
Bear was 5-4-1 in his first year at Bama. Saban was 7-6. Duke was considering firing Coach K early in his career. You often hear various fan bases say something like their coach's record is better than Saban's first at Bama. This is almost always hopeful thinking. These three coaches were able to learn lessons and adapt and then see a great payoff in their record. Hundreds of coaches have had similar early records to these coaches. Most all were later fired.
Maybe I too am being hopeful, but I truly believe that Coach Debour will become really successful at Bama. As successful as the Bear and Saban?.... well probably not. But maybe as successful as Coaches Wade, Thomas and Stallings.
The key is being prepared to always win the games we should win. ( Also we are going to have to be getting some of the best players).

 

[arthurdawg]

Comparing a coach's early years can be very deceiving .
Bear was 5-4-1 in his first year at Bama. Saban was 7-6. Duke was considering firing Coach K early in his career. You often hear various fan bases say something like their coach's record is better than Saban's first at Bama. This is almost always hopeful thinking. These three coaches were able to learn lessons and adapt and then see a great payoff in their record. Hundreds of coaches have had similar early records to these coaches. Most all were later fired.
Maybe I too am being hopeful, but I truly believe that Coach Debour will become really successful at Bama. As successful as the Bear and Saban?.... well probably not. But maybe as successful as Coaches Wade, Thomas and Stallings.
The key is being prepared to always win the games we should win. ( Also we are going to have to be getting some of the best players).

At some level of talent... No amount of coaching can lead to a dominant team...

And even then, Saban had to spend a year just getting people in shape after the absolute disaster of an S&C program under Shula. I just remember looking at pics of our players from 2004-2006 and then 2008-9.

Spindly stick arms and legs gave way to massive dudes that just physically beat you on the field. I do think that other teams have drastically updated their own S&C and they matched us by the late 2010s in many respects.

 

[davefrat]

I may have posted this before, but I wonder how the expanded playoff will affect coaching retention.

Will it become somewhat like basketball where a coach can helm a top program for decades with only a single national title like a Tom Izzo or Jim Boeheim?

Would Bama keep a coach like DeBoer for say, 10-15 years if he didn't win a NC but we go to the playoff every year and make say 3-4 deep runs in the tournament?

 

[AlexanderFan]

I may have posted this before, but I wonder how the expanded playoff will affect coaching retention.

Will it become somewhat like basketball where a coach can helm a top program for decades with only a single national title like a Tom Izzo or Jim Boeheim?

Would Bama keep a coach like DeBoer for say, 10-15 years if he didn't win a NC but we go to the playoff every year and make say 3-4 deep runs in the tournament?

I think so, if the talent begins to spread out, or get lumped, you’ll want a coach who can get you there and maybe get some luck to win it.

 

[davefrat]

I think so, if the talent begins to spread out, or get lumped, you’ll want a coach who can get you there and maybe get some luck to win it.

I tend to agree, but it's going to be weird watching the transition.

 

[BamaMoon]

I may have posted this before, but I wonder how the expanded playoff will affect coaching retention.

Will it become somewhat like basketball where a coach can helm a top program for decades with only a single national title like a Tom Izzo or Jim Boeheim?

Would Bama keep a coach like DeBoer for say, 10-15 years if he didn't win a NC but we go to the playoff every year and make say 3-4 deep runs in the tournament?

Interesting question. First, if he made the playoffs every year for 10 years and didn't win a NC I'm pretty sure he'd be gone after just a few of the first few years. I'm guessing 4 or 5 appearences without a title and he would be shown the door.

But if your scenario played out, unless he's not the coach I think he can be, I don't see how we wouldn't eventually win one if we kept putting ourselves into contention.

 

[TideEngineer08]

By the time he took the Alabama job, Coach Saban had completely designed his blueprint for a program. Call it "The Process." Coach DeBoer is literally still drawing up his blueprint, IMO.

That makes all the difference in the world, and it is why the program couldn't help but take a step back when Coach Saban retired. IMO the only one who could have kept it rolling to some degree would have been Kirby. His long tenure under Coach Saban coupled with what he had done since then at Georgia would have given all the experience needed to keep the train rolling. He most likely would have retained most if not all the roster that existed when Coach Saban retired. But he was never going to take the job, and that meant a complete overhaul was in store.

Considering a complete overhaul is what took place, I think DeBoer has done a good job. And I think he's earned the task of continuing to build his program. But as several of you have pointed out, NIL/Portal has turned the sport completely on its head. And so all the blueprints had to be overhauled. The whole reason, for example, that Kirby has declined is the same reason Coach Saban retired. NIL/Portal has changed everything for everyone.

 

[BamaInBham]

Minor point: I see Lanning’s name mentioned as a preference over DeBoer from time to time, but I would take CKD 10 times out of 10. CDL seems immature and has a little Bill Curry in him. Head to head is not everything, but DeBoer is 3-0 vs Lanning when they were at Washington and Oregon. Lanning is even younger than DeBoer and may mature but i never wanted him and subsequent history has only confirmed it to this point. But he has everything tangible at Oregon, especially virtually limitless money.

I would definitely take DeBoer over Sarkisian too. He was incredibly mediocre at the same Washington where DeBoer was spectacular, taking over a program that still had some of the very good Chris Petersen’s talent, but was broken by 2 years of Jimmy Lake. Btw, CKD is 2-0 vs Sarkisian at Texas.

Though this is closer, I would take him over Ryan Day, who has squandered a great deal of Saban-quality talent at OSU. Great guy and I wish him well but prefer DeBoer at this point.

Though the jury is still out, I sincerely prefer no one at this time over DeBoer. Alabama has very good money, but it is 2nd tier money, thus they will rarely have the most overall talent in the biggest games, so they will need to outthink their opponents from a program & roster building standpoint, as well from a strategic O and D design and finally with a superior game plan. He’s already done it to Lanning, Sarkisian, and Kirby to the tune of 7-1. Overall he is 20-6 vs ranked opponents, the highest winning % in college football history.

The staff is a great evaluator of talent, a key to everything: Cuevas, Bernard, Brailsford, Brown, Brooks, Russell, Simmons, Delgaty, the cb from Mercer, Woodson, Thomalla, et al. The HS kids were 3 star or lower when first pursued by the staff, and though some were eventually bumped up by the services, (Russell may have been a lower 4 star when many laughed at Alabama for pursuing him, but ended up winning the Elite 11 and as the No 2 recruit.), the portal additions have exceeded expectations at this point.

There’s a lot to like about DeBoer and his staff. IMO, Alabama would be insane to dump him unless his tenure collapses. Patience is warranted and frankly the journey thus far hasn’t been that bad with a lot of highs and a few lows/head scratchers. But there was distinct improvements from season 1 to season 2, like one would expect from someone navigating shifting sands while early in his P4 career at the hottest college football cauldron on the face of the earth, with some of the most fanatical, smartest and dullest fans in the sport.

 

[TideEngineer08]

Where DeBoer lacks most compared to Saban is the ability to maintain his teams focus week to week against opponents who are inferior to you but still good enough tot beat you.

And, imo, that was the final piece to the puzzle that Coach Saban put together. From there he went from being a really good coach to the best of all time.

 

[AlexanderFan]

Where DeBoer lacks most compared to Saban is the ability to maintain his teams focus week to week against opponents who are inferior to you but still good enough tot beat you.

And, imo, that was the final piece to the puzzle that Coach Saban put together. From there he went from being a really good coach to the best of all time.

I think it was earlier in this thread, but he’s 66? Games behind Saban in games coached. That’s five plus offseasons of adjustments, refinements, and strategy changes. There’s still time, we are just having to watch his potential maturation in real time at our university, and that can be painful.

 

[BamaMoon]

Where DeBoer lacks most compared to Saban is the ability to maintain his teams focus week to week against opponents who are inferior to you but still good enough tot beat you.

And, imo, that was the final piece to the puzzle that Coach Saban put together. From there he went from being a really good coach to the best of all time.

I think that's the point. By the time CNS came to Bama he basically had this formula known as "the process" as part of his coaching acumen. After cutting away the fat in his first year, the results were immediate in year 2 and if it were not for Tebow and Company at UF, we probably would have won the title that year too! But, everybody knew it was coming and it was evident at the end of year two.

But CKD, had 6 years and 66 games less experience when he started at Bama. CNS had already won a title at LSU and during his first year of cleaning house at Bama, LSU, under Les Miles, won another NC off the storehouse of talent he left for Miles to work with.

So yes, CNS > CKD. To be more exact: 2007 CNS > 2024 CKD.

Every coach today outside of Kirby, Day (and some would say Cig) would still lose in a side-by-side comparison with CNS (not even including Dabo or Jimbo, the other coaches with titles).

Any comparison of CKD to CNS is futile and irrelevant to a fan with half a brain. We need to be thankful and celebrate CKD's success as a young, top 5 HC in college football (according to almost any poll). I think he'll get us to the mountaintop if we'll be patient and if he keeps growing at the rate we are currently seeing.