2016 Season QB Thread

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I'm not trying to diminish that achievement at all but it isn't the Elite 11 QB camp 7 v 7 drills (in shorts and T-shirts) meaning no offensive or defensive lines? The QBs in those drills aren't throwing or performing under the pressure of facing a real defense. It's still a great accomplishment but I'm not sure how much that translates to being a QB in shoulder pads, helmets and facing a live pass rush. Also, does anyone know the past winners of the Elite 11 QB camp? It would be interesting to see how successful the past winners were in college..

I don't know about past winners but in that competition with Blake was Josh Rosen who started at UCLA this season and Kyler Murray and also Ricky Town. Rosen had a stellar opening season at UCLA. If he continues to trend on this path I'd expect to see Heisman talk for him in the next few seasons. I think the idea is more that Blake kept company with talent and out-talented the talent. OF course, nobody is saying he doesn't have the goods, I'm just pointing out what value you may be able to find in using the Elite 11 as a barometer.

 

[bamaslammer]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I think one reason many fans fear Bateman is they are still suffering flashbacks from the 80's and early 90's when most Alabama quarterbacks lacked the arm strength to push the ball down field and beating them was a simple issue of stacking the box. Any time the defence can effectively ignore half the field you are eventually going to lose. in most cases that loss is going to be to an SEC West opponent who will wave at you on their way to Atlanta. I don't know if Bateman is as bad as that but I just know my facial ticks come back when I think of all the short passes he threw last year. I'm hoping to see more from him Saturday. Otherwise I better stock up on valium.

 

[RTR91]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I'm not trying to diminish that achievement at all but it isn't the Elite 11 QB camp 7 v 7 drills (in shorts and T-shirts) meaning no offensive or defensive lines? The QBs in those drills aren't throwing or performing under the pressure of facing a real defense. It's still a great accomplishment but I'm not sure how much that translates to being a QB in shoulder pads, helmets and facing a live pass rush. Also, does anyone know the past winners of the Elite 11 QB camp? It would be interesting to see how successful the past winners were in college..

The Elite 11 website doesn't appear to have a list of past winners. Here's the Wikipedia page with a list of participants back to the first year in 1999.

I think one reason many fans fear Bateman is they are still suffering flashbacks from the 80's and early 90's when most Alabama quarterbacks lacked the arm strength to push the ball down field and beating them was a simple issue of stacking the box. Any time the defence can effectively ignore half the field you are eventually going to lose. in most cases that loss is going to be to an SEC West opponent who will wave at you on their way to Atlanta. I don't know if Bateman is as bad as that but I just know my facial ticks come back when I think of all the short passes he threw last year. I'm hoping to see more from him Saturday. Otherwise I better stock up on valium.

I forgot how much arm strength Greg McElroy had.

 

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I think one reason many fans fear Bateman is they are still suffering flashbacks from the 80's and early 90's when most Alabama quarterbacks lacked the arm strength to push the ball down field and beating them was a simple issue of stacking the box. Any time the defence can effectively ignore half the field you are eventually going to lose. in most cases that loss is going to be to an SEC West opponent who will wave at you on their way to Atlanta. I don't know if Bateman is as bad as that but I just know my facial ticks come back when I think of all the short passes he threw last year. I'm hoping to see more from him Saturday. Otherwise I better stock up on valium.

Downfield threat is a staple of a CLK offense. People talk about him having mobile QB's being his style but it wasn't really that way during his time at USC. The vertical threat and the mismatches are more his M.O. I agree, I think it is more necessary for Bateman to make consistent throws beyond 20 yards than for him to run a read/option offense. Not saying he can't at all - but it has not been seen to date. This may be where Cornwell possess an advantage. Even Saban has praised is arm talent.

 

[CrimsonForce]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I think one reason many fans fear Bateman is they are still suffering flashbacks from the 80's and early 90's when most Alabama quarterbacks lacked the arm strength to push the ball down field and beating them was a simple issue of stacking the box. Any time the defence can effectively ignore half the field you are eventually going to lose. in most cases that loss is going to be to an SEC West opponent who will wave at you on their way to Atlanta. I don't know if Bateman is as bad as that but I just know my facial ticks come back when I think of all the short passes he threw last year. I'm hoping to see more from him Saturday. Otherwise I better stock up on valium.

Seriously? This is what I was talking about in my prior post. Those QBs in the 80s and 90s weren't half the athlete that Bateman is. There's more than one way to move the ball down the field..

 

[CrimsonForce]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

Downfield threat is a staple of a CLK offense. People talk about him having mobile QB's being his style but it wasn't really that way during his time at USC. The vertical threat and the mismatches are more his M.O. I agree, I think it is more necessary for Bateman to make consistent throws beyond 20 yards than for him to run a read/option offense. Not saying he can't at all - but it has not been seen to date. This may be where Cornwell possess an advantage. Even Saban has praised is arm talent.

Neither was running the ball 50 times per game but CLK has learned to adapt to the talent on the team..

 

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I forgot how much arm strength Greg McElroy had.

It was definitely a detriment but having a Heisman winner in the backfield can right many wrongs, as we've all seen. Doesn't hurt to have Julio Jones being able to fly through the air to make off target passes look like dimes. Not bad mouthing McElroy, but his arm strength was still a detriment. It's fortunate he was in a McElwain system.

 

[CrimsonForce]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

It was definitely a detriment but having a Heisman winner in the backfield can right many wrongs, as we've all seen. Doesn't hurt to have Julio Jones being able to fly through the air to make off target passes look like dimes. Not bad mouthing McElroy, but his arm strength was still a detriment. It's fortunate he was in a McElwain system.

Arm strength and throwing vertical routes are 2 different things. Arm strength is more relative to fitting the ball into a tight window between two defenders. CLK's offense is predicated on getting our best WR (Cooper and now Ridley) matched up 1 on 1 out in space. This normally ends up with a wide open receiver. It doesn't take arm strength to hit a wide open receiver down the field. It takes throwing the ball on time and accuracy. Coker has one of the strongest arms and he routinely under threw deep balls because his timing was off. A QB with a lesser arm that throws on time can be a better deep ball thrower. Heck, I think Blake Sims was a better deep ball thrower than Coker and Coker has a much stronger arm than Blake..

 

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

Neither was running the ball 50 times per game but CLK has learned to adapt to the talent on the team..

He takes advantage of the weapons he has - but there will always be the weapons he prefers. History indicates that he PREFERS the downfield threat to the running game. He has the talent on this team to do either one, so it'll be interesting to see where he goes. This is probably the most diverse offensive period in his career for reasons you've stated.

 

[Tide1986]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I don't think Saban is afraid to give the QB job to a freshman. I think he asks so much from the position, that it's almost impossible for anyone that young to deliver.

This is how I see it.

 

[TideEngineer08]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I don't understand why any of us are worried about the QB position anymore.

A good many of us thought Phillip Sims was more talented and capable should have been the starter in 2011. We were wrong. When AJ McCarron graduated, and Jacob Coker transferred in, probably most thought he would win the starting job over Blake Sims. He did not. Last year, it seemed obvious that Cornwell was the best guy for the job. Coker just couldn't put it together. Then Cornwell seemed to hit some kind of wall during the summer, and wait, this Blake Barnett kid has all the tools. Ultimately, Coker won out and Alabama won out as well.

It seems we fans would learn after a while. I know a lot of you probably had everything right all these years and saw McCarron, Blake Sims, and Jake Coker as the guys that would ultimately win the starting position. But most of us were wrong at some point or at every point along the way. I've learned to trust Coach Saban, even when it appears he gaffes like what happened against Ole Miss last season. Just trust the process. The right guy will emerge, and we'll be fine. At it most likely won't be the one that all the fans seem to clamor for.

 

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

Do you realize arm strength and throwing vertical rights are 2 different things? Arm strength is more relative to fitting the ball into a tight window between two defenders. CLK's offense is predicated on getting our best WR (Cooper and now Ridley) matched up 1 on 1 out in space. This normally ends up with a wide open receiver. It doesn't take arm strength to hit a wide open receiver down the field. It takes throwing the ball on time and accuracy..

It's a combination. Angle and trajectory have a lot to do with deep balls but if the receiver is 40 yards downfield arm strength is certainly a factor. I used to play center field and would practice my throws into home plate religiously. My batting in baseball was awful but I had a great arm, and an accurate throw (crow-hopped off a grounder at least) to home plate was a mixture of velocity and trajectory. You can have a great angle but you don't want a weak armed guy throwing your deep ball for timing purposes. Arm strength can dig you out of a hole if you are a second behind. That velocity can make a big difference. (And before anything is mentioned I fully understand the differences in timing between a baseball throw to the plate and hitting a wide receiver in football - I only used that as an example of the combination of strength and angles when making long throws.) Additionally, outside of Cooper, wide receivers aren't just loping down the field with defenders 10 yards behind them on every play (though Ridley had 1 or 2 like that) - they may be open, but that radius where the ball needs to be placed can still be tight.

 

[mdb-tpet]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

He takes advantage of the weapons he has - but there will always be the weapons he prefers. History indicates that he PREFERS the downfield threat to the running game. He has the talent on this team to do either one, so it'll be interesting to see where he goes. This is probably the most diverse offensive period in his career for reasons you've stated.

I think Kiffin's MO is more complex than that. He seems to study teams well and finds weaknesses in their coverage schemes. Then he uses those weaknesses to get quick downfield strikes, and often touchdowns. But he also uses stretch plays and up the middle running to keep the defense guessing. I would really hate to play against his schemes. Most teams seem prepared for about 90% of what we run, and the other 10% they are playing catch-up.

 

[Intl.Aperture]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I think Kiffin's MO is more complex than that. He seems to study teams well and finds weaknesses in their coverage schemes. Then he uses those weaknesses to get quick downfield strikes, and often touchdowns. But he also uses stretch plays and up the middle running to keep the defense guessing. I would really hate to play against his schemes. Most teams seem prepared for about 90% of what we run, and the other 10% they are playing catch-up.

Imma always get dinged for generalizations, I should know that by now - but confound it, I ain't got time to fill in every nook and cranny of an explanation while at work. I completely agree with you - but I'll validate my original statement by saying he does what you mentioned in order to open up the downfield game. Bubble screens are not downfield, nor are slants but he likes oth of those as well. But they are stratagems in order to open up the preferred option of a home run. As CrimsonForce pointed out, when that option isn't open, he will adapt and run or other methods.

 

[CrimsonForce]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

It's a combination. Angle and trajectory have a lot to do with deep balls but if the receiver is 40 yards downfield arm strength is certainly a factor. I used to play center field and would practice my throws into home plate religiously. My batting in baseball was awful but I had a great arm, and an accurate throw (crow-hopped off a grounder at least) to home plate was a mixture of velocity and trajectory. You can have a great angle but you don't want a weak armed guy throwing your deep ball for timing purposes. Arm strength can dig you out of a hole if you are a second behind. That velocity can make a big difference. (And before anything is mentioned I fully understand the differences in timing between a baseball throw to the plate and hitting a wide receiver in football - I only used that as an example of the combination of strength and angles when making long throws.) Additionally, outside of Cooper, wide receivers aren't just loping down the field with defenders 10 yards behind them on every play (though Ridley had 1 or 2 like that) - they may be open, but that radius where the ball needs to be placed can still be tight.

I like the analogy you made but I still think that arm strength gets over analyzed. I mean, John Parker Wilson threw deep balls perfectly fine. So did McElroy, and AJ, and Blake, and Coker. Theres all different levels of arm strength between those 5 players and we never lost a single game because of the inability to stretch the field vertically. JPW led us to an undefeated regular season and we were leading UF in the SECCG deep in the 2nd half. If not for a heroic performance by Tebow we would have played for a NC with JPW as our QB. I'm not disparaging JPW at all but he wouldn't even be recruited by Alabama today. Bateman is supremely more talented than JPW. I just don't think CNS would recruit a QB who couldn't make all the throws. I don't think CNS and CLK would have Bateman as the #1 QB (RIGHT NOW) if he couldn't make all the throws..

 

[Isaiah 63:1]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

...to say he wasn't a leader on the field is ludicrous. Winston only lost one game in his career, and more times than not he was the reason they won...Off the field issues aside, it's hard to say he wasn't a leader on the field...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think means.

 

[81usaf92]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

My point was and still is that it's about impossible for a freshman (redshirt or otherwise) to deliver what Saban asks of a QB. Johnny Manziel was no leader, and would never have both pulled the shenanigans he did and played for Saban.

Additionally, that offense doesn't demand the reads and recognition that Saban's does. It demands athletic ability, which Manziel certainly has. But due to the same traits that would have prevented his playing at Alabama, he's flushing it down the toilet.

Winston is more of a valid observation, but as to the reads and recognitions, not the leadership. His criminal behavior would not have been covered up by the TPD, and he would have been suspended or kicked off the team altogether well before the judicial process ran its course.

Either way, Winston would not have been the abysmal example he was and gotten playing time in Tuscaloosa.

If your point is that freshmen can have good years playing college football, I agree. But it you're saying that they can deliver what Saban demands of the position, and using Johnny Manziel and Jameis Winston as examples...well, I just don't see it that way.

Upperclassmen tend to start for Saban, not because he plays favorites, but because they're infinitely better equipped to deliver what he demands. IF(a huge two letters) a freshman who does that comes along, he'll play. I just don't see that happening.

My point is that your observation is not 100% true, and it's the exact opposite of the dominating opinion heading into last summer in which the mass amount of posters on here said "Coker had his chance, and if it is close give it to the young bucks". The odd thing about this is that the last two years the dominating opinion has been wrong. Like 2014 " oh Saban is just hyping up sims, but we all know Coker is the guy", then 2015 " oh Saban isn't talking much on Coker, so it must be Cornwell".

Point is there isn't this clear cut distinction of a qb of who is going to be a qb at Alabama. So why try to make them.

 

[92tide]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

I like the analogy you made but I still think that arm strength gets over analyzed. I mean, John Parker Wilson threw deep balls perfectly fine. So did McElroy, and AJ, and Blake, and Coker. Theres all different levels of arm strength between those 5 players and we never lost a single game because of the inability to stretch the field vertically. JPW led us to an undefeated regular season and we were leading UF in the SECCG deep in the 2nd half. If not for a heroic performance by Tebow we would have played for a NC with JPW as our QB. I'm not disparaging JPW at all but he wouldn't even be recruited by Alabama today. Bateman is supremely more talented than JPW. I just don't think CNS would recruit a QB who couldn't make all the throws. I don't think CNS and CLK would have Bateman as the #1 QB (RIGHT NOW) if he couldn't make all the throws..

i loved watching jpw as qb in 2008

 

[CrimsonForce]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

i loved watching jpw as qb in 2008

So did I - I never said that I didn't like JPW. I was just pointing out that he isn't nearly as talented as the other 4 guys competing for the job this year including Bateman. There's a lot of posts on here that act like Bateman has inadequate talent to QB the team. I'm not sure how any Bama fans can feel that way considering we've had some of the least talented college QBs (McElory and JPW come to mind) have great success in their college careers. Again, I'm not being negative about McElory or JPW just being realistic. There's a lot of teams that have won NC's with superstar QBs such as Vince Young, Cam Newton, Tim Tebow etc. That's not the recipe for success at Alabama and never has been..

 

[BamaMoon]

Re: Spring Practice Thread (Interviews, Press Conferences, Practice Reports)

So did I - I never said that I didn't like JPW. I was just pointing out that he isn't nearly as talented as the other 4 guys competing for the job this year including Bateman. There's a lot of posts on here that act like Bateman has inadequate talent to QB the team. I'm not sure how any Bama fans can feel that way considering we've had some of the least talented college QBs (McElory and JPW come to mind) have great success in their college careers. Again, I'm not being negative about McElory or JPW just being realistic. There's a lot of teams that have won NC's with superstar QBs such as Vince Young, Cam Newton, Tim Tebow etc. That's not the recipe for success at Alabama and never has been..

I understand what you are saying...and it's true we've had success with qbs who maybe were not considered super stars...but I don't think for a moment that we'd rather have a "game manager" type than a "super star" type.

So far in CNS's career we've seen the "game manager" type do just fine, but I don't think that means a "super star" couldn't emerge and eventually do everything the game manager can do PLUS so much more. Up to this point I don't think we've had this person emerge.

That's probably why Blake Barnett is so popular...people think he might could be that guy...like a combo of all the good things Blake Sims could do with his feet and arm and AJ could do with his arm and brain.