As usual Brother Earle is the smartest man in the room on this one. His lack of leadership (which he was so often lauded for and even named SI Sportsman of the year) directly led to many more incidents after the initial uncovering of this monster. Add to that the pimping out of young boys to high dollar boosters, and it just makes it clear a complete clean slate with no further honors for JoePa is needed. He has his statue, his library- RIP and move on with it.
Do you think Penn St. should name the stadium after Paterno?
- Thread starter rtcjny
- Start date
With all the piling on going on here I feel like I should post some counterpoints, just for conversation sake. Being from Pennsylvania and having the local meia all over all of the unfortunate PSU situation and most of my friends being diehard PSU fans, I have a little different and closer view of all this.
First off, should they name the stadium after him? Ultimately, I think they should. Is it too early for it to happen? I think so. They should let the dust settle a little bit and see what the lay of the land looks like around 5 years from now.
Now as to why. First of all is Paterno the guy that should shoulder the blame? Did he do any of the crimes? No and no. Should he have been more proactive? Maybe, after hearing a lot about this, I'm not sure he could have, or that knew how to handle what was going on.
The grand jury report was that Mike McQuery went to Paterno with the information about Sandusky. Paterno had no first hand knowledge, so he went to his bosses and told them they had something that needed to be looked into. I've had this happen to me in business, a subordinate told me that another subordinate was doing something illegal (it was quite bad, not molestation kind of bad, but bad). Did I run into the office fire him right away and call the police? No, because I didn't have any evidence, I really only had what one guy was saying about another, so I did what Paterno did, I went to my superiors and told them we had a huge problem. Should he have pressed more, I think so, but he trusted that his superiors would do what was right and, in the end, he shouldn't have trusted them. Severe lack of judgement on his part, but that does not make him guilty? Weak maybe and unfit for dealing with that situation, but not guilty of any crime.
There was no way he had any idea how bad Sandusky was or how bad the situation would be handled. His superiors truly bungled everything. One of the men that Paterno reported to was in charge of the PSU police, the PSU police then bungled everything. Paterno is taking the brunt of the sour feelings; basically he was a guy that did what he could with some secondhand information. Add to that, every time that McQuery was interviewed about the incident his story was different, was he lying, no, but what did he really say? When the State Attorney General was investigating the incident McQuery told him that "horsing around" was going on. It's hard to get a real grasp of the situation. It was a failure of the system as a whole.
Ultimately I look at a guy like him, a guy who has a library named for him, because he paid for most of it. A guy who has spent his life trying to do things the right way and has been the most positive figure in PSU history and has done more for the university and it's students than any other individual. A guy like this, who has spent his countless hours for charity, doesn't strike me as a guy that would turn a blind eye to molestation. Really it just doesn't fit.
Long story short, I think it would be fitting if the stadium had his name, just not for a few years. This doesn't lessen the pain of the victims in any way, but to place blame on Paterno for anything other than showing a lack of judgement on trusting the people that ran PSU is a little misguided. I really don't want to minimize the level of how awful what happened was, but when I step back and look at the spot Paterno was in, it really was a sopt where he couldn't win. Any action was not going to stand up to scrutiny.
First off, should they name the stadium after him? Ultimately, I think they should. Is it too early for it to happen? I think so. They should let the dust settle a little bit and see what the lay of the land looks like around 5 years from now.
Now as to why. First of all is Paterno the guy that should shoulder the blame? Did he do any of the crimes? No and no. Should he have been more proactive? Maybe, after hearing a lot about this, I'm not sure he could have, or that knew how to handle what was going on.
The grand jury report was that Mike McQuery went to Paterno with the information about Sandusky. Paterno had no first hand knowledge, so he went to his bosses and told them they had something that needed to be looked into. I've had this happen to me in business, a subordinate told me that another subordinate was doing something illegal (it was quite bad, not molestation kind of bad, but bad). Did I run into the office fire him right away and call the police? No, because I didn't have any evidence, I really only had what one guy was saying about another, so I did what Paterno did, I went to my superiors and told them we had a huge problem. Should he have pressed more, I think so, but he trusted that his superiors would do what was right and, in the end, he shouldn't have trusted them. Severe lack of judgement on his part, but that does not make him guilty? Weak maybe and unfit for dealing with that situation, but not guilty of any crime.
There was no way he had any idea how bad Sandusky was or how bad the situation would be handled. His superiors truly bungled everything. One of the men that Paterno reported to was in charge of the PSU police, the PSU police then bungled everything. Paterno is taking the brunt of the sour feelings; basically he was a guy that did what he could with some secondhand information. Add to that, every time that McQuery was interviewed about the incident his story was different, was he lying, no, but what did he really say? When the State Attorney General was investigating the incident McQuery told him that "horsing around" was going on. It's hard to get a real grasp of the situation. It was a failure of the system as a whole.
Ultimately I look at a guy like him, a guy who has a library named for him, because he paid for most of it. A guy who has spent his life trying to do things the right way and has been the most positive figure in PSU history and has done more for the university and it's students than any other individual. A guy like this, who has spent his countless hours for charity, doesn't strike me as a guy that would turn a blind eye to molestation. Really it just doesn't fit.
Long story short, I think it would be fitting if the stadium had his name, just not for a few years. This doesn't lessen the pain of the victims in any way, but to place blame on Paterno for anything other than showing a lack of judgement on trusting the people that ran PSU is a little misguided. I really don't want to minimize the level of how awful what happened was, but when I step back and look at the spot Paterno was in, it really was a sopt where he couldn't win. Any action was not going to stand up to scrutiny.
Paterno did meet with the the individual who was the head of the University Police and told him what was going on, his name is Gary Schulz. Turns out that is wan't enough and his assumption was the the University would follow thorough with going to the Police and they failed. Again it was second hand information that he had, so although it was not right, I don't think the he thought that he could do more with it. Not saying that it's right, just that it was a very odd situation for him to navigate.
When Paterno saw that nothing was being done to Sandusky he should have followed up and said more. My opinion is that he just wanted this to ugly away. Crimes against children are never to be tolerated. Sandusky is evil and Paterno knew it. Having your name on a stadium changes nothing.
Sorry, I don't buy one word of these alibis. He failed in his most important role and he failed badly, injuring quite a few innocents. Believe what you want, but I don't buy it. I know from relatives there what kind of power he had and you're trying to minimize. He could have put a stop to it instantly, but he didn't want the scandal. End of story...
I"m sorry, guys. I have to add one more thing that others have brought up before me....
Suppose the boy in the shower was Joe Paterno's grandson. Would he have let it drop at a notification to organizational superiors? Despite the fact that Joe Paterno knew he himself had more real power than anybody on campus, reporting lines notwithstanding?
With no evidence other than McQueary's say-so, he'd have followed up and followed up and followed up. He'd have called the head of the FBI and the Pennsylvania Bureau of Investigation. He'd have gotten the US Attorney General on the line, simply because he could.
But it was the son of a nobody that was getting forcibly raped in that shower, pinned against a tile wall by a man 50 years his senior, infinitely more physically powerful than he was at that moment, and infinitely more influential than anybody he could bring as a witness later. And a man with the power to bring down the full wrath of law enforcement and prosecution did an "Ole'" and said, "Not my yob. I fulfilled my legal duty."
Let the Pennsylvania State University, its faculty, staff, students, alumni and fans put his name wherever they want. Whether it's tomorrow or ten years from now or a hundred. Regardless of what's etched on Joe Paterno's headstone, his epitaph is "I fulfilled my legal duty."
I get so freaking mad when people continue to label his cover-up as "a mistake." Reminds me of the OSU and the Tressel apologists.
A mistake is when you lock your keys in your car, or forget your spouse's birthday, or forget to pay your bills, etc, etc. What Tressel and Paterno did were much more than that and to make it worse, both had daily reminders of their moral failures, but still chose to continue to put their programs above doing the right thing.
But there's a huge difference between the two men, Tressel's actions, lying scumbag that he is only effected the outcome of a few CFB games. Paterno's failure, OTOH horribly impacted many young lives forever. FOREVER!!
"mistake"............Don't insult our intelligence by trying to peddle that crap here.
A mistake is when you lock your keys in your car, or forget your spouse's birthday, or forget to pay your bills, etc, etc. What Tressel and Paterno did were much more than that and to make it worse, both had daily reminders of their moral failures, but still chose to continue to put their programs above doing the right thing.
But there's a huge difference between the two men, Tressel's actions, lying scumbag that he is only effected the outcome of a few CFB games. Paterno's failure, OTOH horribly impacted many young lives forever. FOREVER!!
"mistake"............Don't insult our intelligence by trying to peddle that crap here.
Sir, I must respectfully disagree with you. I would bet that I would prefer a stricter sentence for all criminals, especially those that commit crimes against children than most of you reading this, but I don't believe Paterno qualifies. Perhaps I am not fully informed of the particulars of this case or am simply naive, but from my reading, Paterno, having only second hand info, reported what was told to him to his superiors and to the campus police and was told that they would handle it. This sounds like a reasonable response to me, considering he only had second hand info. Paterno, the legendary coach, has helped mold 10's of thousands of young men into productive moral GOOD young men. I thank God that when I am judged, I will stand before a loving, understanding God that will not throw 50 years of service to young people out the window and instead say that one instance of you should have done more counts more. Remember, Paterno has never been accused of doing anything but good for young people; he is accused of "only" reporting a second hand accusation to his superiors and to the campus police. I would suggest that there are saints who have committed greater sins. JMHO
Then please, by all means, educate me. I certainly don't claim to know inside info as to what happened, only the news reports. I am not trying to be a smartbutt here. From what I have read, he only had second hand info and he reported it not only to his superiors, but also to the head of campus police and was told that it would be investigated and taken care of. At that point, has he not fulfilled his minimal moral obligation? If he had firsthand knowledge of abuse, then I could agree with the lynch mob, but from my understanding of his only a second hand knowledge, I cannot without further corraboration.I'm guessing it's both.
I agree with your last sentence - only. Paterno had god-like power on that campus. Several years ago, the AD sent a delegation to "persuade" him to retire. He threw them out and continued on. The "he did all he could" excuse makes people from the area who are familiar with the boundaries of his almost limitless power - laugh. It's unfortunate that whatever good he's done is far over balanced by the ruined lives he allowed to occur under his watch and tutelage. JMHO, of course, but there are a lot of good people who agree with me...
I am a grunt. A simple retired military grunt. In the military, as you well know, you NEVER go outside the chain of command. From the news reports only, it "seems" to me, that he reported this as best he could; however, if he truly was the top dog, while only mascuarading as coach, then you lynch mob guys are absolutly right. My only question is, if he truly had that much power, then how did he get fired? Look, I understand guys like you know 10 times what I could ever find out and thats OK. But if he truly had that much power, how did he get fired the way he did?
This is the Joe Paterno we are talking about. He could have called the police and the AD while McQueary was at his house and they would have come right away. Then, it would not have been second hand information he was reporting. He would have been a great man supporting his employee in providing his first-hand account of what he witnessed to the police and making sure such a heinous act gets the immediate attention that it deserved.
Simply reporting this to your superior could possibly be deemed as an acceptable action if we were talking about some average employee on campus. But we are talking about the most influential person in the athletic department and probably in their university system. To only report this to his immediate superior, the AD, the following day is just not a good enough response. There has been no evidence put forth that Paterno ever reported this to the campus police or any law enforcement agency. If he had reported it to law enforcement, his image probably would not have taken such a hit because then he would have done all that could be expected of anyone. If he was such an upstanding person as we were led to believe, I don't see how he could have rested until this situation was resolved with either Sandusky being cleared of abusing young boys or being prosecuted.
I cannot help but wonder if Paterno would have simply passed the buck if it was someone other than his good friend who had been reported as seen sexually abusing a 10 year old boy. It really should not have mattered who the perpetrator was but sadly it seems that it did.
Paterno had no fear of the AD or the president; they would have never out and out fired him. The Board of Trustees fired Paterno and the university president after the AD had already stepped down.
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/46576/psu-board-explains-paterno-firing-again
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Some of you need to read the grand jury report BEFORE you step up to defend Paterno. The shower incident was not the first problem they had with Sandusky. Remember, Sandusky was the heir apparent, until another incident years before the shower incident lead to his dismissal. Also remember that Sandusky had full use of the facilities until all of this hit the fan with the release of the grand jury report. Paterno FAILED on this one; no excuses. He not only failed to stop Sandusky; he enabled him with access to PSU facilities and his silence.
G'ville,
I too, am a retired military and in no possible way would or should you report and do nothing. Each person has the responsibility to ensure that, in our case, a lawful order is carried out but an unlawful order is reported. There are avenues in the military that enable that to happen if nothing is done, the IG for example. In this case, with the power that CJP held, a "I reported it" scenario just doesn't seem to fit. Hell, I bet he could have called the White House and the President would have taken the call. As much as we might have all respected the man, that's the very same attitude that have allowed pedophiles to exist, at least in my opinion.
I too, am a retired military and in no possible way would or should you report and do nothing. Each person has the responsibility to ensure that, in our case, a lawful order is carried out but an unlawful order is reported. There are avenues in the military that enable that to happen if nothing is done, the IG for example. In this case, with the power that CJP held, a "I reported it" scenario just doesn't seem to fit. Hell, I bet he could have called the White House and the President would have taken the call. As much as we might have all respected the man, that's the very same attitude that have allowed pedophiles to exist, at least in my opinion.
This whole situation brings to mind the quote "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing".
As I said, I don't have a problem with naming it after him, but I understand the positions of those who are against it. Right now is probably not a good time to do it.
As I said, I don't have a problem with naming it after him, but I understand the positions of those who are against it. Right now is probably not a good time to do it.
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