ESPN article - Saban and the Bama QB problem

[Evil Crimson Dragon]

Speaking of coaches, if Bo Davis was on our sidelines instead of Texas there is a good chance we win that game. Their d line made a huge impact in the outcome.

Yeah, I think I could have forgiven him and brought him back

 

[KrAzY3]

I agree. Top 5 recruiting classes mean little if you don’t 1) retain 2) develop and 3) have them contribute early. Gone are the days where a kid sits around two or three years waiting their “shot”. Might as well concentrate on getting those already developed….

It also potentially makes staffing even easier.

Right now Saban is trying to get guys who can recruit, develop, and prepare them for game day/coach them on game day.

Now I would argue you could just develop relationships with the people who control the funds and get the guys ready to play. You can in theory cut out development and recruiting in the traditional sense. I mean look at what "Coach Prime" did, he brought in 50 transfers. He built a top 25 team out of that.. who says you have to develop these long lasting relationships with players that start in middle school? Just go get who ever is playing well at the college level.

 

[GrayTide]

IIRC between the end of the 2017 season and the end of the 2019 season we lost 13 assistant coaches. As I see it right now, the transfer portal gives a team with only marginal recruiting success, a do-over, it also is an impediment to developing players. As I said in another thread it has done more to to level the playing field than the scholarship reductions between 1972-1992.

 

[81usaf92]

I believe that the biggest adjustment Saban needs to make is how he orients his staff relative to recruiting.

I would argue that you should almost give up on recruiting certain positions, and stick to areas where you have to develop players within the system and as a group.

Why for instance though do you need to develop receivers and even quarterbacks? I can name plenty of successful transfers at both positions, and generally you know what you are getting when it occurs.

From Russell Wilson, to Cam Newton, to Sam Hartman, I don't think anyone was really surprised by the success of these guys because they were known commodities at that point. So why do you even bother trying to recruit the position and develop the position when even best case scenario they are with you three seasons (generally only active two of those years)?

So, to me it becomes not about recruiting players, but recruiting boosters and corporate partners who are going to pay and entice those guys to come play for you. That's the game now and Hartman openly said he went to Notre Dame due to NIL money. Alabama meanwhile has Milroe and I think we know who got that short end this season at least, and that's the issue right? That may be Milroe becomes better, but even if he puts it together next season, he still leaves for the NFL, so what did your patience and development really buy you?

You do realize that Golding was an ace recruiter and so was Locksley. Recruiting has never been the issue in these hires. Unless you are aiming this argument strictly at Freddie Roach who still has yet to produce a 1st or 2nd round guy.

 

[KrAzY3]

You do realize that Golding was an ace recruiter and so was Locksley. Recruiting has never been the issue in these hires. Unless you are aiming this argument strictly at Freddie Roach who still has yet to produce a 1st or 2nd round guy.

Yes of course I know Golding was a great recruiter, he was who I had in mind in terms of how Saban typically builds his staff by sacrificing competence in other areas.

My point is that the recruiting high school kids era is basically over in terms of being the foundation of a contender.

When a team can put together a top 25 team consisting of 50 transfers, you know that you can do more to win immediately via the transfer portal than via recruiting high school kids.

So, you tell me, which is more important to winning? The old method or just getting guys ready to contribute immediately that are already proven at the college level? Let someone else do the hard part...

For example, Alabama got beat by a transfer QB this year and if they get beat by Ole Miss it will be a transfer QB doing it. What's Alabama's biggest problem right now? That they didn't get an elite transfer QB (and receiver), not that they didn't recruit well enough, that they didn't recruit the portal well enough.

So my argument is the days of keeping some guy around purely because he's a good recruiter should be over as well. Can they recruit Nike to sign those kids? Can they recruit that NIL money? That's the game now...

 

[crimsonaudio]

Unless you are aiming this argument strictly at Freddie Roach who still has yet to produce a 1st or 2nd round guy.

I have questions about his ability as a coach at this point. The DL talent Bama has should be terrorizing folks, yet for the last few years they've been (relatively) quiet...

 

[bamaslammer]

Milro is likely the best we have today, not sure how that will change. if the line were not so horrible and they gave Milro about 15 designed runs per game, added more RPO options and found something in the intermediate range that he could do reasonably well I think you could build some sort of offense around that. not a great one, but at least something. Not sure what Reese is doing. The TV commentators are roasting him pretty regularly. I know Saban doesn't like to listen to outside voices, but when everyone is saying something in general it's something you at least want to consider.

My guess is we continue to lose and once we know the season is over you might see Lonergan at QB. if you're going to lose you might as well build to the future. It's not something Saban has ever done... so he'll probably just do the same thing every week and then whine about execution in the press conference. He commonly takes accountability for losing, but rarely does much different. If that is the case that means the 2's are beyond horrible, which begs the question, how can 4 and 5 star players not progress in our program.

The staff turnover you guys talk about, these are things every program manages to deal with fine. So it's not that coaches leave us, It's the ones we HAVE that are the problem, not the ones who left for a promotion. Sure, Bo being with us vs Texas probably does flip that game, but Bo is not the only good DL coach in America.

In the end when we look back on this time I believe Alabama and Saban will be the last great college football Dynasty. Possibly the best ever for a time. But this is NOT college football any more and Saban is not well suited for this game. I don't see the enthusiasm in his voice any more. He's not chewing out reporters for stupid questions. He even apologized to one the other week. What world are we living in where Saban worries about reporters feelings. He's not going Nuclear on the sideline any more. It's like the gig is up and he's just sad.

 

[BamaMoon]

I believe that the biggest adjustment Saban needs to make is how he orients his staff relative to recruiting.

I would argue that you should almost give up on recruiting certain positions, and stick to areas where you have to develop players within the system and as a group.

Why for instance though do you need to develop receivers and even quarterbacks? I can name plenty of successful transfers at both positions, and generally you know what you are getting when it occurs.

From Russell Wilson, to Cam Newton, to Sam Hartman, I don't think anyone was really surprised by the success of these guys because they were known commodities at that point. So why do you even bother trying to recruit the position and develop the position when even best case scenario they are with you three seasons (generally only active two of those years)?

So, to me it becomes not about recruiting players, but recruiting boosters and corporate partners who are going to pay and entice those guys to come play for you. That's the game now and Hartman openly said he went to Notre Dame due to NIL money. Alabama meanwhile has Milroe and I think we know who got that short end this season at least, and that's the issue right? That may be Milroe becomes better, but even if he puts it together next season, he still leaves for the NFL, so what did your patience and development really buy you?

I don't disagree with much of what you've said except NOBODY, even Auburn, didn't know what they had in Cam until about 4 games into 2010.

Auburn barely won a couple of those games because they hadn't figured out how to use him. But when they did, it was all over. I can't stand the guy, but he was filthy good that year, but Auburn paid the 180K based on potential not results.

 

[KrAzY3]

I don't disagree with much of what you've said except NOBODY, even Auburn, didn't know what they had in Cam until about 4 games into 2010.

Auburn barely won a couple of those games because they hadn't figured out how to use him. But when they did, it was all over. I can't stand the guy, but he was filthy good that year, but Auburn paid the 180K based on potential not results.

I debated it a bit myself before I posted it, but it's a good chance to make my point a bit so let's go for it.

Cam was a 5 star out of high school, #2 QB according to Rivals. Huge get, huge recruit, he goes to Florida where he barely plays, he throws 12 passes, we don't really know much beyond he's talented right? Then he misbehaves and he ends up in junior college.

At Blinn he leads his team to a national title, where he puts up very good stats and accounts for 38 touchdowns in only 12 games. At this point he's been in college for 3 years and shown he can perform against higher level competition (than high school).

So he's a much, much more known commodity than he was coming out of high school and he's much more ready to play.

Let's compare what Florida got compared to what Auburn got. Florida used a signing slot to get him, and held a scholarship for him for two years. They focused on recruiting him over other players and for what? A backup for a couple of years?

Meanwhile Auburn spends six figures, one scholarship slot for one year, and they get a much more seasoned ready to play version of the same exact guy! Just imagine even Milroe in that same position. This is year three Milroe right? First year as a starter Milroe and Alabama has already invested heavily in his development.

What if Alabama could have just gotten year four Milroe after he was already proven elsewhere as a starter? Wouldn't that have been way better? Imagine a world where Alabama gets Hartman this year, and then if they want Milroe the next year after he's proven himself elsewhere. Oh yeah and they also would have had one more signing slot and freed up a scholarship a couple of years.

 

[colbysullivan]

I have questions about his ability as a coach at this point. The DL talent Bama has should be terrorizing folks, yet for the last few years they've been (relatively) quiet...

I also think the mush rush scheme is to blame for some of this. It’s hard to imagine it just being a talent problem.

 

[BamaMoon]

I debated it a bit myself before I posted it, but it's a good chance to make my point a bit so let's go for it.

Cam was a 5 star out of high school, #2 QB according to Rivals. Huge get, huge recruit, he goes to Florida where he barely plays, he throws 12 passes, we don't really know much beyond he's talented right? Then he misbehaves and he ends up in junior college.

At Blinn he leads his team to a national title, where he puts up very good stats and accounts for 38 touchdowns in only 12 games. At this point he's been in college for 3 years and shown he can perform against higher level competition (than high school).

So he's a much, much more known commodity than he was coming out of high school and he's much more ready to play.

Let's compare what Florida got compared to what Auburn got. Florida used a signing slot to get him, and held a scholarship for him for two years. They focused on recruiting him over other players and for what? A backup for a couple of years?

Meanwhile Auburn spends six figures, one scholarship slot for one year, and they get a much more seasoned ready to play version of the same exact guy! Just imagine even Milroe in that same position. This is year three Milroe right? First year as a starter Milroe and Alabama has already invested heavily in his development.

What if Alabama could have just gotten year four Milroe after he was already proven elsewhere as a starter? Wouldn't that have been way better? Imagine a world where Alabama gets Hartman this year, and then if they want Milroe the next year after he's proven himself elsewhere. Oh yeah and they also would have had one more signing slot and freed up a scholarship a couple of years.

I see your point, but I'm just saying a Cam wasn't Cam until a few games in.

Up unit now, our QB recruitment and development have been outstanding. Time will tell. If Sayin comes in and works out, this year is an anomaly. If not, your suggestion gain more merit.

If so, football becomes like basketball with a bunch of one and dones.

 

[KrAzY3]

I see your point, but I'm just saying a Cam wasn't Cam until a few games in.

Up unit now, our QB recruitment and development have been outstanding. Time will tell. If Sayin comes in and works out, this year is an anomaly. If not, your suggestion gain more merit.

If so, football becomes like basketball with a bunch of one and dones.

I'm not arguing against Saban's system prior to NIL, just saying things have changed.

Not only that, but if you have a known commodity, like a sure thing you don't have to play that game and I get that. I'm mainly saying in this era there really doesn't need to be many question marks. You can always put in a guy that's proven himself at the college level if needs be.

If you have a Tua or a Bryce you know what you have, but even look at Jalen Hurts. I was a massive supporter of his, I really liked him, but even I concede a portal QB would have likely been better than the first two years of play from him and furthermore who ultimately got the best version of Hurts?

Oklahoma, who once again used a single scholarship slot for one year and got the version of him I think we'd all be overjoyed to have this year.

 

[BamaMoon]

I'm not arguing against Saban's system prior to NIL, just saying things have changed.

Not only that, but if you have a known commodity, like a sure thing you don't have to play that game and I get that. I'm mainly saying in this era there really doesn't need to be many question marks. You can always put in a guy that's proven himself at the college level if needs be.

If you have a Tua or a Bryce you know what you have, but even look at Jalen Hurts. I was a massive supporter of his, I really liked him, but even I concede a portal QB would have likely been better than the first two years of play from him and furthermore who ultimately got the best version of Hurts?

Oklahoma, who once again used a single scholarship slot for one year and got the version of him I think we'd all be overjoyed to have this year.

Very true and to your point the portal and NIL changes everything about the sport going forward.

Unless the NCAA brings back the 1 year sit out rule for transfers, this is the new normal.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Very true and to your point the portal and NIL changes everything about the sport going forward.

Unless the NCAA brings back the 1 year sit out rule for transfers, this is the new normal.

And if this becomes the new normal, I suspect how recruiting departments are operated and staffed will also change.

 

[Ole Man Dan]

Nick coaches his coaches hard. Some get their feelings hurt.

You got to have a pair of 'Big Boy Pants' if you coach at Alabama.

 

[crimsonaudio]

Nick coaches his coaches hard. Some get their feelings hurt.

Could be that. Could also be that he's lost some of that fire and that's what made coaches want to put in the long hours. It's not gone unnoticed that Bama's struggled to bring in the bigtime staff hires the last few cycles, which seemingly coincides with 'grandpa' Saban's emergence.

 

[Ole Man Dan]

I debated it a bit myself before I posted it, but it's a good chance to make my point a bit so let's go for it.

Cam was a 5 star out of high school, #2 QB according to Rivals. Huge get, huge recruit, he goes to Florida where he barely plays, he throws 12 passes, we don't really know much beyond he's talented right? Then he misbehaves and he ends up in junior college.

At Blinn he leads his team to a national title, where he puts up very good stats and accounts for 38 touchdowns in only 12 games. At this point he's been in college for 3 years and shown he can perform against higher level competition (than high school).

So he's a much, much more known commodity than he was coming out of high school and he's much more ready to play.

Let's compare what Florida got compared to what Auburn got. Florida used a signing slot to get him, and held a scholarship for him for two years. They focused on recruiting him over other players and for what? A backup for a couple of years?

Meanwhile Auburn spends six figures, one scholarship slot for one year, and they get a much more seasoned ready to play version of the same exact guy! Just imagine even Milroe in that same position. This is year three Milroe right? First year as a starter Milroe and Alabama has already invested heavily in his development.

What if Alabama could have just gotten year four Milroe after he was already proven elsewhere as a starter? Wouldn't that have been way better? Imagine a world where Alabama gets Hartman this year, and then if they want Milroe the next year after he's proven himself elsewhere. Oh yeah and they also would have had one more signing slot and freed up a scholarship a couple of years.

You just might have earned the name KRAZY3.
KRAZY like a Fox. I agree with you 100%.
The Portal is now cheaper and a better value than recruiting a highschool guy for 3 years and spending time and money developing him. This is a KRAZY time in college sports. I don't like the way PRIME bought a football team, but he is producing results.
The old way of Recruiting has been turned on it's head by big money NIL in the PORTAL.
We are going to have to make adjustments in recruiting.
These days recruiting skilled players for money, produces results.
I'll bet this drives Coach Saban KRAZY. I love old school football, but it appears those days are gone.
I hate to say it but we are going to have to get onboard with the new reality.
Lest anyone think I'm downing Deon Sanders, let me describe him...
Deon is a showman, he's like a wrestling promoter. Deon is outrageous. Kids love him.
Deon may be the new face of College Football.
Deon has proved that skillful use of the PORTAL produces instant results.
(Beats losing...)

 

[AWRTR]

You just might have earned the name KRAZY3.
KRAZY like a Fox. I agree with you 100%.
The Portal is now cheaper and a better value than recruiting a highschool guy for 3 years and spending time and money developing him. This is a KRAZY time in college sports. I don't like the way PRIME bought a football team, but he is producing results.
The old way of Recruiting has been turned on it's head by big money NIL in the PORTAL.
We are going to have to make adjustments in recruiting.
These days recruiting skilled players for money, produces results.
I'll bet this drives Coach Saban KRAZY. I love old school football, but it appears those days are gone.
I hate to say it but we are going to have to get onboard with the new reality.
Lest anyone think I'm downing Deon Sanders, let me describe him...
Deon is a showman, he's like a wrestling promoter. Deon is outrageous. Kids love him.
Deon may be the new face of College Football.
Deon has proved that skillful use of the PORTAL produces instant results.
(Beats losing...)

I agree with you, but I'm not sure CNS is going to be willing to make those adjustments at this stage of his career. I fear he may decide it's time to do something else. I sure hope he doesn't, but I wouldn't blame him if he did.

 

[CajunCrimson]

I agree with you, but I'm not sure CNS is going to be willing to make those adjustments at this stage of his career. I fear he may decide it's time to do something else. I sure hope he doesn't, but I wouldn't blame him if he did.

Most of us aren’t willing to make those adjustments as fans. I agree that he is likely not willing to make those adjustments at this stage either.

 

[AWRTR]

Most of us aren’t willing to make those adjustments as fans. I agree that he is likely not willing to make those adjustments at this stage either.

I'm finding myself not adjusting well as a fan. I'm watching less football this year than I have since I was in high school in the early 1990's. I just don't care as much about the sport as a whole.