Genetics and evolution

BU is throwing around words like stupid and dense regarding Creationist thoughts on scientists. I’ve never said or thought that scientists are stupid or dense, just that they are influenced by their worldview when it comes to interpreting evidence concerning the past. Scientists are brilliant people. When it comes to science in the present, testing and development of new products, plastics, genetics, medicine, etc., science has made tremendous strides in improving the quality of our lives, and advancing technology. When working in a lab and getting the same results over and over, or when building a machine to perform a function, there is a lot less room for bias to affect the results. When dealing with the past, unobservable, unrepeatable events, assumptions and bias play a much larger role in interpreting data.

We are not suggesting that Creationism should necessarily supplant evolution, but that evolution should not be presented to the public as a fact and that it is the only way to explain how life arose. Maybe the textbooks should say, this is our best guess as to how life came to be, however some people believe an Intelligent designer is the answer and the evidence can just as easily be interpreted to support that view. Creation should be presented alongside evolution. As has been shown here, the same evidence can be used to support an Intelligent Designer, a biblical viewpoint. Not only that, but key evidence to support the evolutionary theory is missing – how amphibians became warm-blooded, where are all the missing links Darwin thought would be found, how lungs developed from gills, how reproductive systems changed from egg-bearing to live birthing, etc. Actually the only real, repeatable, testable evidence you have is evidence of adaptation within a family, no reptiles turning into birds or monkeys turning into humans.

Here are a couple of quotes I ran across from evolutionists that support my assertion that evolution (not science) is a religion.

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p. 26

‘Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
‘… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’
Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? National Post, pp. B1,B3,B7 May 13, 2000.
 
BeccaBama said:
BU is throwing around words like stupid and dense regarding Creationist thoughts on scientists. I’ve never said or thought that scientists are stupid or dense, just that they are influenced by their worldview when it comes to interpreting evidence concerning the past. Scientists are brilliant people. When it comes to science in the present, testing and development of new products, plastics, genetics, medicine, etc., science has made tremendous strides in improving the quality of our lives, and advancing technology. When working in a lab and getting the same results over and over, or when building a machine to perform a function, there is a lot less room for bias to affect the results. When dealing with the past, unobservable, unrepeatable events, assumptions and bias play a much larger role in interpreting data.

We are not suggesting that Creationism should necessarily supplant evolution, but that evolution should not be presented to the public as a fact and that it is the only way to explain how life arose. Maybe the textbooks should say, this is our best guess as to how life came to be, however some people believe an Intelligent designer is the answer and the evidence can just as easily be interpreted to support that view. Creation should be presented alongside evolution. As has been shown here, the same evidence can be used to support an Intelligent Designer, a biblical viewpoint. Not only that, but key evidence to support the evolutionary theory is missing – how amphibians became warm-blooded, where are all the missing links Darwin thought would be found, how lungs developed from gills, how reproductive systems changed from egg-bearing to live birthing, etc. Actually the only real, repeatable, testable evidence you have is evidence of adaptation within a family, no reptiles turning into birds or monkeys turning into humans.

Here are a couple of quotes I ran across from evolutionists that support my assertion that evolution (not science) is a religion.

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p. 26

‘Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
‘… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’
Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? National Post, pp. B1,B3,B7 May 13, 2000.

Now I can see why CBF bailed. More deafening silence...
 
Bamalaw92 said:
If you deny God and there is ultimately proven that there is one, have you lost more, less or the same as someone who believes in God and it is ultimately proven that there is no God?

which makes his position braver then yours i'd say. talk about bias. sounds like your beliefs are based on fear of a what if. kinda like not robbing the cash register because youre afraid you'll get caught...some moral decision there :frown:
 
Rainbow Tider said:
which makes his position braver then yours i'd say. talk about bias. sounds like your beliefs are based on fear of a what if. kinda like not robbing the cash register because youre afraid you'll get caught...some moral decision there :frown:


Look who is defining morality for someone else . BL simply asked a rhetorical question. He never refered to himself. You mistakenly inferred that. I happen to know he walks by faith not sight.
 
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Rainbow Tider said:
which makes his position braver then yours i'd say. talk about bias. sounds like your beliefs are based on fear of a what if. kinda like not robbing the cash register because youre afraid you'll get caught...some moral decision there :frown:
Braver or more foolish? I guess it is a matter of perspective. As for bias, you may notice that I have not voiced my opinion on that topic in the context discussed here. I am admittedly very biased in favor of God and my personal saviour Jesus Christ. My beliefs are not based on fear at all. My beliefs are based on faith, observation and personal experience. I would not rob a cash register, but it is not because I would fear getting caught, it is because I know it is the wrong thing to do. Thanks for your input though. I will pray for you.
 
bamabake said:
you start trying to punch holes in the new theory until it too is replaced.


I am not punching the holes science is.
NO scientist can explain how all came from nothing. You havent. Didnt it have to be created? If not how?


you're missing the point. here's the relevant part again

blackumbrella said:
the key question here is: what sort of explanative theory do you expect will replace evolution in the scientific community? i promise you one thing--it's not going to be 'god did it.' so then the whole process begins again, you start trying to punch holes in the new theory until it too is replaced. and do you really expect then, that 'god did it' will pass muster as a scientific explanation? the creationist endeavor to supplant evolution is futile. it may well be the case that creationism outlives evolution, but it won't outlive science. if evolution flags, it will be bc science has upgraded to a stronger theory. ultimately you creationists are going to have to face the fact that your theory is metaphysical, religious, mythological, immaterial, take your pick, but it is not scientific and never will be. at least not in the form that's being argued for in this thread.
 
blackumbrella said:
you're missing the point. here's the relevant part again


I give up. You are either too full of your own words.. I dont know. What you said wasnt relevant. I got whatever relevant point was available. If you will not deal with the substance of the posts around you I see no way to debate this, at least with yourself.

cheers
 
BeccaBama said:
evolution should not be presented to the public as a fact
should creationism be presented to the public as a fact?

Maybe the textbooks should say, this is our best guess as to how life came to be,
maybe the bible should say the same. we'll make alot of disclaimer stickers like they have in ala textbooks and slap em on page 1 of genesis.

can just as easily be interpreted to support that view.

or the view that our entire universe is the dream of giant woolybooger. let's teach that in SCIENCE CLASS too


Here are a couple of quotes I ran across from evolutionists that support my assertion that evolution (not science) is a religion.

"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects the spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of the educational level--preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new--the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with all its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism."
John Dunphy, A Religion for a New Age, Humanist, Jan.-Feb. 1983, p. 26

you do realize that no mention whatsoever is made of evolution there.

‘Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion — a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint — and Mr [sic] Gish is but one of many to make it — the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.
‘… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’
Ruse, M., How evolution became a religion: creationists correct? National Post, pp. B1,B3,B7 May 13, 2000.
[/QUOTE]

there are two quotes there. what did he say in between? you probably don't know bc you clearly got the quote here at answers in genesis!!! . nevertheless. i actually met ruse a few years back when he gave a talk at bama on hell and the notion of a just god. he concluded the two ideas were incompatible. i respect him as a philosopher, but you're going to have to dig up a more comprehensive argument from him, which will certainly be an informative venture, bc that quote alone is simply oxymoronic, 'secular' and 'religion' being contradictory terms. i suspect he's making some kind of point about people who are anti-religious (as opposed to simply unreligious) and use the ev/cre debate as a battleground bc it affords them the 'high ground.' but please, post some more of his writings here. i think he'll be a nice addition to tidefans.
 
bamabake said:
I give up. You are either too full of your own words.. I dont know. What you said wasnt relevant. I got whatever relevant point was available. If you will not deal with the substance of the posts around you I see no way to debate this, at least with yourself.

cheers

let me rephrase. you're right that science is helping us to learn more every day. and cabam is right that science is naturalistic. so science is never going to explain events, not the expansion of the universe, not the origin or diversity of species, by appealing to supernatural forces. as such, why the fixation on using scientific evidence to justify your claims?
 
Bamalaw92 said:
Braver or more foolish? I guess it is a matter of perspective. As for bias, you may notice that I have not voiced my opinion on that topic in the context discussed here. I am admittedly very biased in favor of God and my personal saviour Jesus Christ. My beliefs are not based on fear at all. My beliefs are based on faith, observation and personal experience. I would not rob a cash register, but it is not because I would fear getting caught, it is because I know it is the wrong thing to do. Thanks for your input though. I will pray for you.

i'm not brave, i'm just not superstitious. and i'm certainly foolish in alot of ways, but not being superstitious isn't one of them. but maybe i'm a fool to think so. it's like they say YHWH
 
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genetics and evolution

ValuJet said:
Twenty six pages. Wow! War and Peace, here we come!

Some of us lurkers, intellectually ill-equipped for the rigors of this discussion AND desirous of avioding the invective frequently tossed about, are curious if this is a record for length in TideFans threads. If not, DON'T TELL US what the record is. Let's see if it "creates" or "evolves" into a record. :smile:
 
blackumbrella said:
let me rephrase. you're right that science is helping us to learn more every day. and cabam is right that science is naturalistic. so science is never going to explain events, not the expansion of the universe, not the origin or diversity of species, by appealing to supernatural forces. as such, why the fixation on using scientific evidence to justify your claims?


Sigh.. Well first off you and the others going back to the last time we talked about this demanded (even though the burden of proof is on you guys) scientific evidence to back the claim of creationism or at least intelligent design. In fact that is what has been done in this thread over and over again.
What you are missing I think is that there isnt an "appeal" to supernatural forces here. What is in fact being UNDERSTOOD BY SCIENCE is a growing understanding that nature can no longer explain the facts NOW BEING UNCOVERED BY SCIENCE. Why coming to the conclusion that intelligent design is involved threatens you either emotionally or even intellectually baffles me. If you concider yourself intelligent, if there is an infinite God that knows all, why not find out all you can. Seems like the intelligent thing to do to me.
 
blackumbrella said:
i'm not brave, i'm just not superstitious. and i'm certainly foolish in alot of ways, but not being superstitious isn't one of them. but maybe i'm a fool to think so. it's like they say YHWH
It is not superstition to have faith in something you cannot possibly begin to comprehend in all its glory.
 
bamabake said:
What you are missing I think is that there isnt an "appeal" to supernatural forces here.
creationism doesn't appeal to supernatural forces?!! call it intelligent design if you like, that doesn't secularize it. anything intelligent and powerful enough to get this cosmos up and running might as well be a god relative to us.

What is in fact being UNDERSTOOD BY SCIENCE is a growing understanding that nature can no longer explain the facts NOW BEING UNCOVERED BY SCIENCE.
huh?

Why coming to the conclusion that intelligent design is involved threatens you either emotionally or even intellectually baffles me.
i don't find that threatening, i find it threatening that fundamentalists, themselves threatened by the progress of the scientific community, are impinging on that progress by distorting and mischaracterizing good scientific findings, and endorsing religiously motivated pseudoscience and fringe opinions as the 'right interpretation' while dismissing the opinions of real scientists, those most qualified to make and judge interpretations.
 
blackumbrella said:
creationism doesn't appeal to supernatural forces?!! call it intelligent design if you like, that doesn't secularize it. anything intelligent and powerful enough to get this cosmos up and running might as well be a god relative to us.

huh?


i don't find that threatening, i find it threatening that fundamentalists, themselves threatened by the progress of the scientific community, are impinging on that progress by distorting and mischaracterizing good scientific findings, and endorsing religiously motivated pseudoscience and fringe opinions as the 'right interpretation' while dismissing the opinions of real scientists, those most qualified to make and judge interpretations.


Have you learned nothing my friend? There are many "real scientist" on our side of the debate.. and others have been shown to have a unscientific bias.
You should go back and read all these pages again. You seem to be to smart a person to be blinded by your faith. Go back and ask yourself why there are so many points made that can't be answered by your "good scientific findings" Be honest with yourself. Investigate the holes in your wonderful all perfect theory. I would imagine if your hero Darwin were alive today he would have a different take of the whole thing. Of course he would keep his mouth shut if he wanted get funding for his research. hehe
 
KillVols said:
There are many "real scientist" on our side of the debate.. and others have been shown to have a unscientific bias.
You should go back and read all these pages again.
you might want to reread as well. in particular, the newsweek and gallup polls i linked to on page 7, polls indicating that ~95% of scientists are NOT on your side. also the points on bias, viz. the in-built checks against it in science, and the lack thereof in supernatural speculation.

Be honest with yourself. Investigate the holes in your wonderful all perfect theory.
I assure you I can and have done just that. I suspect though that you are incapable of so much as acknowledging flaws in the theory you endorse, let alone investigating them and contemplating other alternatives. Incapable.

I would imagine if your hero Darwin were alive today he would have a different take of the whole thing.
i don't have heroes, only teachers.
 
Bamalaw92 said:
It is not superstition to have faith in something you cannot possibly begin to comprehend in all its glory.


maybe so, maybe not, maybe so. it's a tricky term. i don't think it's superstitious to believe there are things we don't and may never understand, things that affect our lives. i do think it's it's superstitious to rigidly assert a very particular and dogmatic understanding of such things bc, as you say, 'you cannot possibly begin to comprehend' them.
 
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