H-1B visas in IT.

[Tidewater]

Not sure this fits in the ICE thread, so I'll give it its own thread.
US signals intention to rethink job H-1B lottery
Kevin Lynn, executive director of Institute for Sound Public Policy, a non-profit that advocates for US workers and the reform of guest worker programs, wrote in a blog post on Thursday

"In 2023, American colleges graduated 134,153 citizens or green card holders with bachelor's or master's degrees in computer science. That same year, our federal government handed out work permits to at least 110,098 foreign workers in computer occupations through just three major guest worker programs. That's equal to 82 percent of our graduating class who are guaranteed jobs even before any Americans walk across the stage for their diploma."

I understand that software companies, to stay competitive, need to fill position that cannot be filled by the existing American workforce, but the H-1B visa system is being used not to fill unfillable positions, but to undercut existing American workers.

I have said this in other contexts, but it bear saying here as well. Americans as a group have many good qualities (courage, generosity, to name a few), but one thing Americans stink at is judgment (saying, "This one is worthy, that one is not").

So Congress creates a program for American employers that have a position that they simply cannot fill within the US work force and that failure will hurt the company's ability to compete. The company can recruit overseas. The company gets to decide whether they can or cannot fill the position within the US workforces, so guess what? A significant portion of US IT jobs get filled by H-1B visa holders from India. In effect, Congress has created a system to keep Americans from getting jobs. You get to outsource the labor while keeping the company inside the US.

 

[Padreruf]

Not sure this fits in the ICE thread, so I'll give it its own thread.
US signals intention to rethink job H-1B lottery
Kevin Lynn, executive director of Institute for Sound Public Policy, a non-profit that advocates for US workers and the reform of guest worker programs, wrote in a blog post on Thursday

"In 2023, American colleges graduated 134,153 citizens or green card holders with bachelor's or master's degrees in computer science. That same year, our federal government handed out work permits to at least 110,098 foreign workers in computer occupations through just three major guest worker programs. That's equal to 82 percent of our graduating class who are guaranteed jobs even before any Americans walk across the stage for their diploma."

I understand that software companies, to stay competitive, need to fill position that cannot be filled by the existing American workforce, but the H-1B visa system is being used not to fill unfillable positions, but to undercut existing American workers.

I have said this in other contexts, but it bear saying here as well. Americans as a group have many good qualities (courage, generosity, to name a few), but one thing Americans stink at is judgment (saying, "This one is worthy, that one is not").

So Congress creates a program for American employers that have a position that they simply cannot fill within the US work force and that failure will hurt the company's ability to compete. The company can recruit overseas. The company gets to decide whether they can or cannot fill the position within the US workforces, so guess what? A significant portion of US IT jobs get filled by H-1B visa holders from India. In effect, Congress has created a system to keep Americans from getting jobs. You get to outsource the labor while keeping the company inside the US.

The Law of Unintended Consequences strikes again...Part of the problem (IMHO) is that there are far too many liberal arts grads who have no skills in the IT industry -- if you don't count being able to post on social media. At least that's the dominant perspective being floated around. Who knows what the real "truth" maybe?

 

[Tidewater]

It is frustrating. According the the blog post, ""In 2023, American colleges graduated 134,153 citizens or green card holders with bachelor's or master's degrees in computer science. That same year, our federal government handed out work permits to at least 110,098 foreign workers in computer occupations."
I think a lot of that is that H-1B visa holders can be paid less.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

Not sure this fits in the ICE thread, so I'll give it its own thread.
US signals intention to rethink job H-1B lottery
I have said this in other contexts, but it bear saying here as well. Americans as a group have many good qualities (courage, generosity, to name a few), but one thing Americans stink at is judgment (saying, "This one is worthy, that one is not").

So Congress creates a program for American employers that have a position that they simply cannot fill within the US work force and that failure will hurt the company's ability to compete. The company can recruit overseas. The company gets to decide whether they can or cannot fill the position within the US workforces, so guess what? A significant portion of US IT jobs get filled by H-1B visa holders from India. In effect, Congress has created a system to keep Americans from getting jobs. You get to outsource the labor while keeping the company inside the US.

Our government is the most backwards, ignorant bunch of (you know whats) on the planet, and they wonder why taxpayers hate the government. Yeah, let's promote something that hinders Americans from getting jobs inside the U.S. but makes it easier for foreigners. Brilliant freakin' idea!

 

[Tidewater]

Our government is the most backwards, ignorant bunch of (you know whats) on the planet, and they wonder why taxpayers hate the government. Yeah, let's promote something that hinders Americans from getting jobs inside the U.S. but makes it easier for foreigners. Brilliant freakin' idea!

That was my thought the first time I heard about the H-1B visa program.
I understand that if your company needs a widget operator and you simply cannot find an American widget operator in the US, then sure, as a short-term fix, allow the company to hire a foreign widget-operator while you train up an American to replace him. I, however, would put two conditions on that arrangement:
1. Whatever the employer pays the foreigner, the federal government is going to impose an excise to the point that the company is paying slightly above-average salary for an American in the same occupation. For example, if an American widget operator makes $80,000/year, Acme Widgets cannot find an American, so they hire a foreign widget operator and pays him $100/year, then the federal government imposes an excise on Acme of $79,901 so the foreigner does not save the company any money.
2. This arrangement is temporary, and the worker is a guest worker, not entitled to bring any family with him and has an automatic sunset of four years, at which point, the foreign must return home and thereafter has no preference for immigration to the US. He is a temporary guest worker with a sunset. He is merely a band-aid, a bridge to an American taking that job permanently.

 

[75thru79]

I've spent the last 25 years of my career at the intersection of IT and Finance. I quit my job with a Fortune 500 bank and became a consultant back in 2007. Times were good and the hourly pay was really good. Thanks to the H-1B visa program I experienced a gradual decline in hourly rates and was forced to go back to the corporate world in 2017. 11 years without a raise will do that to you. Today nearly 99% of the workers in my field were brought here from India or Pakistan on an H-1B visa. Companies don't even care anymore about hiring American citizens in IT. Almost everybody I work with in my current job is here on an H-1B visa.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I've spent the last 25 years of my career at the intersection of IT and Finance. I quit my job with a Fortune 500 bank and became a consultant back in 2007. Times were good and the hourly pay was really good. Thanks to the H-1B visa program I experienced a gradual decline in hourly rates and was forced to go back to the corporate world in 2017. 11 years without a raise will do that to you. Today nearly 99% of the workers in my field were brought here from India or Pakistan on an H-1B visa. Companies don't even care anymore about hiring American citizens in IT. Almost everybody I work with in my current job is here on an H-1B visa.

Yet we're told Americans either aren't qualified to do jobs they source out or aren't willing. Yet the more I dig into this, the more I find out otherwise.

 

[some_al_fan]

I've spent the last 25 years of my career at the intersection of IT and Finance. I quit my job with a Fortune 500 bank and became a consultant back in 2007. Times were good and the hourly pay was really good. Thanks to the H-1B visa program I experienced a gradual decline in hourly rates and was forced to go back to the corporate world in 2017. 11 years without a raise will do that to you. Today nearly 99% of the workers in my field were brought here from India or Pakistan on an H-1B visa. Companies don't even care anymore about hiring American citizens in IT. Almost everybody I work with in my current job is here on an H-1B visa.

That is because numbers are skewed by industry. In North Alabama IT, there is near 0% (not 0%, but pretty low) of engineers on H-1B visa. I wonder why (Note: it is because of DoD, NASA, etc.).

 

[Its On A Slab]

I'm close to retiring, and I've spent 40+ years in I.T. (software d'ment and support for AS400/iSeries/IBM i).

I well remember the days of Y2k, and the flood of H1Bs coming into this country. They would work for substandard wages, and many of them would be taken advantage of by disreputable recruiters and promoters.

Businesses tended to see the H1Bs as a great way to undercut the salaries of existing workers. What they didn't take into account was that - many of these workers would serve their indentured servant period, and go ahead and get a green card, and maybe citizenship. In the end, they would join our ranks, demanding the higher salaries.

There was also a push at the time(late 90s) to unionize I.T. workers. That never really materialized.

In the end, the H1Bs never really affected my job prospects.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Yet we're told Americans either aren't qualified to do jobs they source out or aren't willing. Yet the more I dig into this, the more I find out otherwise.

They're just cheaper, at least initially, and business is now ruled by the quarterly bottom line...

 

[Tidewater]

I do not know if this is true, but if it is, Congress needs to act.

"International students who stay here after graduation via an F-1 OPT Visa don’t pay payroll taxes, nor do their employers. There are 250k of them making an average of $70k+, and payroll taxes are 15.3%, so we’re subsidizing businesses $2.5B a year to not hire American graduates."

 

[some_al_fan]

I do not know if this is true, but if it is, Congress needs to act.

"International students who stay here after graduation via an F-1 OPT Visa don’t pay payroll taxes, nor do their employers. There are 250k of them making an average of $70k+, and payroll taxes are 15.3%, so we’re subsidizing businesses $2.5B a year to not hire American graduates."

On F-1 OPT they pay federal & state income taxes.
They don’t pay FICA… Why would they, given that a 12-24 month visa won’t allow them to retire in the USA?

 

[Tidewater]

On F-1 OPT they pay federal & state income taxes.
They don’t pay FICA… Why would they, given that a 12-24 month visa won’t allow them to retire in the USA?

Maybe they should because they are foreigners and I do not care if that makes them unhappy?
Given a choice between making a foreigner unhappy and undercutting the employment of an American citizen, I'll take making a foreigner unhappy.

 

[some_al_fan]

Maybe they should because they are foreigners and I do not care if that makes them unhappy?
Given a choice between making a foreigner unhappy and undercutting the employment of an American citizen, I'll take making a foreigner unhappy.

“Unhappiness” is probably not the right term to discuss, but rather legal implications.

We are talking about social security taxation here, and US has agreements with multiple countries to avoid double taxation:

https://www.ssa.gov/international/agreements_overview.html#:~:text=The%20aim%20of%20all%20U.S.,a%20set%20of%20objective%20rules

.

-----
First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation, the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings.
——

 

[75thru79]

Maybe they should because they are foreigners and I do not care if that makes them unhappy?
Given a choice between making a foreigner unhappy and undercutting the employment of an American citizen, I'll take making a foreigner unhappy.

We hear constant talk about the financial problems with the SS Trust Fund and here is an opportunity to add a few dollars to the pot. Maybe not tax the actual visa holder but definitely tax the employer. Why should these companies save even more money from hiring non-citizens.

 

[some_al_fan]

Given a choice between making a foreigner unhappy and undercutting the employment of an American citizen, I'll take making a foreigner unhappy.

I’d be surprised that 7.6% FICA (an F-1 participant pays the other half) has any effect on hiring. US companies hire F-1 students because they:
1. Would accept a cheaper salary than US workers
2. Don’t have mobility; thus, are forced to work for the same employer

 

[some_al_fan]

Maybe not tax the actual visa holder but definitely tax the employer. Why should these companies save even more money from hiring non-citizens.

+1
Agreed

 

[Tidewater]

I’d be surprised that 7.6% FICA (an F-1 participant pays the other half) has any effect on hiring. US companies hire F-1 students because they:
1. Would accept a cheaper salary than US workers
2. Don’t have mobility; thus, are forced to work for the same employer

That may be true, but I'll be darned if the US government should incentivize US employers to hire foreigners over Americans. If they do hire foreigners over Americans, I'd make them pay through the nose for the privilege.

A US Secretary of State used to have an office chat with people who had been nominated for ambassador jobs (and received Senate approval) and about to leave for their posting.
He would walk over to the globe in his office and ask, "Okay, whom you will represent?"
If the ambassador-to-be did not point to the United States, the SecState would remind him/her that "You are going there not to represent the host country. You are going there to represent the United States."

The US government ought to represent the interests of the people of the United States. At the a minimum, the federal government ought to enforce a level playing field so that it makes no difference to the employer. I would asked the US Dept of Labor what the average salary is for Americans working in that career field and skill level. Whatever the employer pays the foreign employee, the employer must pay the US government the difference as a surcharge, plus 10% just to be sure.

 

[Tidewater]

“Unhappiness” is probably not the right term to discuss, but rather legal implications.

We are talking about social security taxation here, and US has agreements with multiple countries to avoid double taxation:

https://www.ssa.gov/international/agreements_overview.html#:~:text=The%20aim%20of%20all%20U.S.,a%20set%20of%20objective%20rules

.

-----
First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation, the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings.
——

Again. Don't care about the foreigner. Don't care a lick.
If that is unacceptable to the foreigner, then I would invite him to not accept it.
And to avoid any confusion, I would charge the same amount of social security, but I would characterize it as a surcharge so there is no attempt later by the foreigner to make claim against the US government. Call is a "stick it to the foreigner" charge.

 

[75thru79]

Again. Don't care about the foreigner. Don't care a lick.
If that is unacceptable to the foreigner, then I would invite him to not accept it.
And to avoid any confusion, I would charge the same amount of social security, but I would characterize it as a surcharge so there is no attempt later by the foreigner to make claim against the US government. Call is a "stick it to the foreigner" charge.