Mass/Active Shooters, Part **FIVE**

[jthomas666]

No jthomas - has never been answered.

So your answer is not owning a firearm yourself......or ever allowing your children to own a firearm?

Even if this is your choice.......how in the world do you keep guns away from your children once they leave home?

Seeing as how I just gave you two answers, it's hard for you to claim that your question has never been answered. And I get that you don't like my answer. It's probably not even realistic to think that it could be enacted; certainly not with this supreme court.

My second answer is closer to reality. If you have firearms, you have a responsibility to keep them safely secured. I'd even go so far as to say it should be a legal responsibility. That gets us to "well, what does 'safely secured' even mean?"

On a high shelf in a closet isn't safely secured, IMO, not if you're in a house with kids--they're too damned curious.

 

[Bazza]

Seeing as how I just gave you two answers, it's hard for you to claim that your question has never been answered. And I get that you don't like my answer. It's probably not even realistic to think that it could be enacted; certainly not with this supreme court.

My second answer is closer to reality. If you have firearms, you have a responsibility to keep them safely secured. I'd even go so far as to say it should be a legal responsibility. That gets us to "well, what does 'safely secured' even mean?"

On a high shelf in a closet isn't safely secured, IMO, not if you're in a house with kids--they're too damned curious.

And if someone hands your child a gun?

Kinda out of your control.

Do they start shooting people?

If not - why not?

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I continue to ask this question - but have yet to have received an answer.

If guns are "the problem"......what would keep anyone here's child from shooting someone?

The answer to that question is what, IMHO, should be the discussion.

In the meantime the oxygen in the room gets depleted when everyone is saying "GUNS!"

Obviously, you can't blame the hardware itself. However, there's no getting around the fact that the easy availability of firearms is a factor. Here, if you get mad enough, there's an implement ready at hand to settle the argument. This is not true in most civilized countries, so arguments don't get settled that way. The "X" factor, however, is something I've puzzled about for decades. Some other societies equal, or almost, in access to firearms. My Lord, in Switzerland, the rifle under the bed is required for large segments of society. They don't kill each other the way we do. We are a young country, in terms of culture. In terms of history, the frontier is close enough to touch. It lasted into the early 20th century. It was a society where "the law" was too far away to be helpful, so you solved problems with iron and lead. The problem is that we're now an urban country, overwhelmingly, and yet we still romanticize and glorify that era in our history. Series TV is literally soaked in it. Any evening, you can tune across the virtual dial and it's unusual if you don't see gun violence on at least one channel. Sorry for the rambling, but it's something I've considered for many years...

 

[Bazza]

Obviously, you can't blame the hardware itself. However, there's no getting around the fact that the easy availability of firearms is a factor. Here, if you get mad enough, there's an implement ready at hand to settle the argument. This is not true in most civilized countries, so arguments don't get settled that way. The "X" factor, however, is something I've puzzled about for decades. Some other societies equal, or almost, in access to firearms. My Lord, in Switzerland, the rifle under the bed is required for large segments of society. They don't kill each other the way we do. We are a young country, in terms of culture. In terms of history, the frontier is close enough to touch. It lasted into the early 20th century. It was a society where "the law" was too far away to be helpful, so you solved problems with iron and lead. The problem is that we're now an urban country, overwhelmingly, and yet we still romanticize and glorify that era in our history. Series TV is literally soaked in it. Any evening, you can tune across the virtual dial and it's unusual if you don't see gun violence on at least one channel. Sorry for the rambling, but it's something I've considered for many years...

I appreciate your reply and comments. It's not rambling. It's sharing an opinion(s) that pertains to the discussion in a constructive manner.

These two comments of yours in particular stand out as having more value than (it seems to me) many realize, as it pertains to the discussion of how to respond to this issue.

Obviously, you can't blame the hardware itself.

Here, if you get mad enough, there's an implement ready at hand to settle the argument.
-snip-
They don't kill each other the way we do.

Let's assume then that we have firearms in our culture....which obviously we do, as guaranteed by our constitution, even.

What does one do then to assist their children to NOT use a firearm in order to settle an argument?

This is what I have been waiting for.....to see if someone can get to in the 'discussion'.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I appreciate your reply and comments. It's not rambling. It's sharing an opinion(s) that pertains to the discussion in a constructive manner.

These two comments of yours in particular stand out as having more value than (it seems to me) many realize, as it pertains to the discussion of how to respond to this issue.





Let's assume then that we have firearms in our culture....which obviously we do, as guaranteed by our constitution, even.

What does one do then to assist their children to NOT use a firearm in order to settle an argument?

This is what I have been waiting for.....to see if someone can get to in the 'discussion'.

This is really the heart of the matter and I’m not sure it’s solvable.

Ideally matters could be settled with words first and you would hope as a last resort… fists.

But it unfortunately seems to always jump from words to weapons like knives and guns.

Imo more needs to be done at the elementary and middle school ages to learn to work through conflicts.

Bullying is a MAJOR problem and teachers and parents do not do enough to stop it. They more often than not address the matter one time and then turn a blind eye.

There isn’t always a 1 to 1 correlation but Shooters and more to the point Mass Shooters were often relentlessly bullied in school to the point they develop hatred for others.

They hate their bully or bullies and hate the adults for not protecting them and letting it happen.

So imo finding a way to solve that problem first would be a helpful first approach.

Adults either need to take it seriously or we need to start teaching hand to hand self defense at an early age and supervise a skirmish.

Put them on a mat or in a ring and Duke it out.

That’s maybe still not ideal but what do we do when Adults let’s little kids get tormented daily?

 

[92tide]

Imo more needs to be done at the elementary and middle school ages to learn to work through conflicts.

i agree.

but this is considered "woke indoctrination" by way too many folks

 

[Bazza]

This is really the heart of the matter and I’m not sure it’s solvable.
-snip-

Thank you!

Now were getting somewhere in the discussion.

When is the last time we saw ANY emphasis on "conflict resolution" in the news.....or on this forum.....as a useful way to address the violence that we see in society?

Notice I said "violence" - not just "firearms".

Because this is the benefit received. We are addressing ALL forms of violence...whether by firearms, knives, vehicles, fisticuffs, and yes even bullying....which indeed is a form of violence.

Try Googling "conflict resolution".......there's a lot of value there!

 

[TIDE-HSV]

I appreciate your reply and comments. It's not rambling. It's sharing an opinion(s) that pertains to the discussion in a constructive manner.

These two comments of yours in particular stand out as having more value than (it seems to me) many realize, as it pertains to the discussion of how to respond to this issue.





Let's assume then that we have firearms in our culture....which obviously we do, as guaranteed by our constitution, even.

What does one do then to assist their children to NOT use a firearm in order to settle an argument?

This is what I have been waiting for.....to see if someone can get to in the 'discussion'.

The gist of my input is that there isn't a pat answer. IDK how you extract the glorification of firearms from a society like ours. OTOH, I've seen cigarette smoking and now alcohol consumption de-glorified...

 

[Bazza]

The gist of my input is that there isn't a pat answer. IDK how you extract the glorification of firearms from a society like ours. OTOH, I've seen cigarette smoking and now alcohol consumption de-glorified...

I agree there isn't a pat answer.

Is "conflict resolution" something that we teach our children - not necessary in schools....but more importantly in the home?

I'm asking the parents on this forum.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

The gist of my input is that there isn't a pat answer. IDK how you extract the glorification of firearms from a society like ours. OTOH, I've seen cigarette smoking and now alcohol consumption de-glorified...

That is a major factor too.

You almost never see smoking on network TV or Cable anymore unless it’s late at night and in ‘prestige’ series.

Drinking you still see but a lot less often. In the 70s and 80s Beer drinking was often shown and even in sitcoms but maybe less now.

Guns are everywhere and including Network TV and as you mentioned in the previous post the Wild West is still glorified and depicted regularly.

Gun violence as a form of conflict resolution is deeply rooted in the DNA of this country.

 

[Bazza]

-snip-
Gun violence as a form of conflict resolution is deeply rooted in the DNA of this country.

Sure but there's a caveat.

What about the underlying theme of good vs bad in the movies/TV shows.

What Clint Eastwood movie ever made does not demonstrate good over evil.

Jack Reacher? John Wick? The Equalizer?

How about the old westerns? I don't think there's a one that does not emphasize good over evil.

You could make an argument that any kind of firearm violence on TV/movies is bad - but it's my opinion that as long as there's a clear emphasis on good over evil.....the violence isn't the issue. IMHO, these shows and movies do a rather great job of teaching life lessons well beyond any violence.

But I am curious for the parents here. Given we live in the world we do today and with all said above.....why wouldn't your child, if they had access to a firearm, shoot someone?

 

[jthomas666]

And if someone hands your child a gun?

Kinda out of your control.

Do they start shooting people?

If not - why not?

If there are no guns--not an issue.
If everyone keeps their weapons securely stored--not a problem.

Sure, there's the possibility that some will randomly walk up and hand your child an AK-47. Of course, I would support charging that person with reckless endangerment.

It sounds as though you want the opposition to present a perfect solution to the problem of gun violence. But there is no perfect solution. I'd be more or less happy with a solution with a slightly better success rate that thoughts and prayers.

 

[Bazza]

If there are no guns--not an issue.
If everyone keeps their weapons securely stored--not a problem.

Sure, there's the possibility that some will randomly walk up and hand your child an AK-47. Of course, I would support charging that person with reckless endangerment.

It sounds as though you want the opposition to present a perfect solution to the problem of gun violence. But there is no perfect solution. I'd be more or less happy with a solution with a slightly better success rate that thoughts and prayers.

OK let's try this since you keep dodging the question.

What would keep your child from hurting someone else with their fists?

 

[crimsonaudio]

But I am curious for the parents here. Given we live in the world we do today and with all said above.....why wouldn't your child, if they had access to a firearm, shoot someone?

Well, my kids wouldn't because we raised them to control themselves and not act irrationally. They were raised around firearms and know how to use them, but they also recognize that using them inappropriately is stupid.

The real issue is cultural, imo. The stark differences in the FBI numbers among races points to a need for fundamental change in large swaths of black culture. Whether that's due to lack of fathers, economics, or something else (likely a combination of many things) I don't know, but the numbers don't lie: in 2021, the gun homicide rate for black people aged 15 to 24 years was 70.65 per 100,000, compared to 2.71 per 100,000 for white individuals in the same age group.

Notes from the Field: Firearm Homicide Rates, by ...

This report shows the overall U.S. firearm homicide rate during 2019 – 2022.

www.cdc.gov

 

[JDCrimson]

The same way you do with teaching your kids to say no to alcohol, tobacco, porn, drugs, unprotected sex, etc.

If you dont want your son looking at porn, you dont leave Playboys and Hustlers laying around...

Some stuff in life, guns included, ought to be hard to get until the appropriate age.

This aint hard. Might be hard to enforce but aint hard to understand how and when guns should be obtainable.

I appreciate your reply and comments. It's not rambling. It's sharing an opinion(s) that pertains to the discussion in a constructive manner.

These two comments of yours in particular stand out as having more value than (it seems to me) many realize, as it pertains to the discussion of how to respond to this issue.





Let's assume then that we have firearms in our culture....which obviously we do, as guaranteed by our constitution, even.

What does one do then to assist their children to NOT use a firearm in order to settle an argument?

This is what I have been waiting for.....to see if someone can get to in the 'discussion'.

 

[Bazza]

Thank you, @crimsonaudio - doesn't hurt to bring other factors into the discussion other than "Gotta keep those guns locked up!"

My children have always been 4-legged and I feel blessed never having to teach them right from wrong or worry about them watching the wrong kind of TV show.

So let me tell you about my Mom and Dad.

My Mom....well she was the greatest human I have ever known. I could go on and on about her attributes, which were many, but her finest virtue was having such a generous heart.

My Dad, who passes away when I was 14......he was the smartest human I have ever known. Neck and neck with Mom...... but overall he just knew more stuff!

I've shared this story before and will repeat it again because in looking back - I think I've carried it with me throughout my life.

After retiring from the Navy in 1959, Dad got a job as an employment counselor with the Virginia Employment Commission. For the next 9 years until he passed away he helped others and shared some of the stories with his family at the dinner table. My Dad....yeah he also had a generous heart. Maybe why Mom and Dad loved each other so much.

It will be different for others, I know. But on the subject of violence in society....it was impressed upon me to always approach all conflict in life with as much diplomacy and intellect as possible. And to seek out resolution using my brain - not my brawn.

And to recognize that there are many who are struggling - so take it easy on all the "judgemental" stuff. None of us are in ANY position to judge. We really aren't.

 

[jthomas666]

OK let's try this since you keep dodging the question.

What would keep your child from hurting someone else with their fists?

I'm not dodging anything; you just don't like my answers. Just say up front that you have no intention of acknowledging any response based on increased gun control.

 

[Bamaro]

I think we've adopted the FBI standard - at least 4 victims...

Injuries dont seem to count much unless there is another angle to the story. No one died yet so this may not have made much national news:

5-year-old girl among 6 injured in Park Heights mass shooting
Baltimore Police Commissioner Richard Worley said officers were called around 8:46 p.m. Saturday to the 5100 block of Queensberry Avenue, where a 5-year-old girl and five adults were shot.

Worley said the girl was shot in a hand and that four men and a woman ranging in age from 23-52 were shot. One of the injure men, who is 38 years old, was in critical condition while the five others suffered non-life-threatening injuries, police said.
Girl among 6 injured in Park Heights mass shooting

 

[jthomas666]

Sure but there's a caveat.

What about the underlying theme of good vs bad in the movies/TV shows.

What Clint Eastwood movie ever made does not demonstrate good over evil.

Jack Reacher? John Wick? The Equalizer?

How about the old westerns? I don't think there's a one that does not emphasize good over evil.

You could make an argument that any kind of firearm violence on TV/movies is bad - but it's my opinion that as long as there's a clear emphasis on good over evil.....the violence isn't the issue. IMHO, these shows and movies do a rather great job of teaching life lessons well beyond any violence.

At this point, the issue becomes the definition of good and evil--and delineations are not always that clear. Palestinians don't think of themselves as evil; neither do Israelis.

 

[75thru79]

i agree.

but this is considered "woke indoctrination" by way too many folks

I've literally never heard anyone claiming teaching basic coping skills as "woke".