Officiating - Bama vs. OU...

[Padreruf]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I don't complain about officials either...but this crew lost control of the game. The call on Willis for illegal formation was bogus...

What bothered me more was they ignored the WR Lamb who pushed Surtain away at least 2x to make catches...if you are going to call defensive PI then you have to call it the other way as well. With CU's big receivers this may become an issue....

 

[day-day]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Yep - it was early in the last Alabama drive of the half. Alabama overcame that one and continued the drive.

Yeah. If anything, it kind of helped Bama by allowing more plays to use up the clock; ended up getting a first down anyway. All the mess that took place afterwards led to settling for a field goal when the drive had an excellent shot at ending with a TD. Coach got after Tagovailoa when D. Harris got called for a false start (on 4th-and-one I think).

 

[Nolan]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Looking at that again, that was totally bogus. He was within the rule...

Typically when illegal formation is called you can see the OL lined up way off the LOS. They showed the replay and I was like, “Um, wot?”

The egregiousness reminded me of the phantom false start late in the 2013 IB.

 

[Nolan]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I wont go into specifics but this may shed a little light on the subject. I know first hand what many of the crews are being told in Championship and playoff games.

They are being instructed to not call any offensive penalties that dont immediately affect a play or are not clearly visable infractions like offsides, roughing, delay of game or illegal formations. Also, they make certain infractions a focus for each offical depending on their responsibilities. The others are told not to call a certain type penalty unless its visibly flagrant. The way they are teaching officials now the only fouls every ref is instructed to call and watch for is late hits, face mask and targeting.

So what you get is 7-8 refs with tunnel vision and only looking for 3-4 infractions and not really paying attention to the rest because that call is for another ref to make and his responsibility.

They are told flags are a disruption to the game and if an obvious foul is being made every play dont call it. Because they will then be determining the game. Think of it like a balk in baseball. If its the pitchers natural motion they dont call it even if it’s technically a balk according to the rules.

I have also heard with my own ears the head official tell his crew that one team has a dominant position group and don’t contribute to their dominance by calling lots of penalties on the opposing team.

Basically they dont call by the rule book anymore. They call by the match up and the flagrant and immediate impact of a foul. Which is absurd but you can tell from all of football this is being taught and enforced in all of football nowdays.

I’ve no cause to doubt you, so wow...just...WOW.

 

[CB4]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Watching the replay, I got the sense that the officials didn't even think a fumble had occurred until after the whistle had blown and the OU came out of the pile with the ball.

Thank you for reintegrating my point in an earlier post. By the reaction of the crew, none of them actually SAW a fumble. But they RULED it a fumble only after the play had ended and the OU player came out with the ball.

So how do you call something you didn’t actually SEE?

It MUST be ruled as the offense maintaining possession THEN go to replay to see if their is conclusive evidence a fumble occurred. Not the other way around.

 

[rolltide_21]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I don’t think they had an agenda for either team. I just think they were incompetent.


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[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I don’t know how an endeavor that makes the money CFB does, can be lacking across the board in such a significant area. It would be like a playoff team with no defense, it just makes no sense.
How can there not be better training, performance review (w/ reward and punishment) on a national scale
Our local HS baseball umpires association even has an evaluation committee of Senior officials. They watch games and grade calls, professionalism, and game management. Those who score highly move up to be eligible for more important playoff games.

I didn't see much of last night's game, but I can guarantee the guys working the game have significantly more training, performance review, and evaluation than any high school official at any level of any sport. Every official is graded on every play in every game. Those grades are used to determine post season assignments. Get enough downgrades and you won't be working at that level the following season. Fans won't hear about the grades and staff changes because they ultimately don't care unless he loses appendages. They'll also disagree with most of them anyway because they'll realize the officials are right a lot more than they think. No official is perfect and there are mistakes every game. Most of what fans complain about though are judgement calls they see differently or don't fully understand the rule or philosophy. That's fine and you are fine to complain as much as you want. But to say they are lacking in training and evaluation is absolutely incorrect.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

FPF was exactly what I meant. So you're saying that, if a player jumps on an opposing player's back while he's on the ground and punches him, then you don't count that as "flagrant?" If so, I'm certainly glad you're not officiating in the SEC. I don't think he would have gotten away with it, even with them...

If the punch is seen that's an automatic ejection. I would have to see the play you describe to determine if it was flagrant.

 

[64met]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Not one to complain about the officiating whether Bama wins or not. This game however, officiating was atrocious. It’s beyond ridiculous at this level with so much at stake the NCAA can’t do better then this bunch.

Oh well, nothing will change anytime soon.

RTR!

 

[bamaga]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Fowler was unabashedly pulling for Oklahoma. Herbie was, IMHO, his usual self. That being said, Oklahoma's safety (#6) made a living out of grabbing a handful of receiver jerseys and never got called. The middle of the Sooner line held Q on nearly rush. Not calling the personal foul on their L tackle was egregious. NCAA needs to spend some of their money on hiring and TRAINING professional referees rather than corporate bonuses!

This is on one play

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What is really bad, the side judge is right off screen at the bottom left watching the play. I put the photos in the wrong order, but the pas is thrown to Smith, but he couldn’t jump for it because the defender was holding him down, this was one of Tua’s incompletions. This was the stop they got after the field goal and they kicked off from the 10.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I just thought of another call I wanted some clarification on - can someone help?
There was a hold called against Wills where he slung a defender to the ground. I haven't rewatched yet, but it looked like 74's hands were inside the shoulderpads and he just used strength to toss the defender. Since when is that illegal?
Herbstriet acted like the act of slinging the defender was a holding call in itself and I can't ever remember that being the case. Can anybody enlighten me on that call?

If a defender keeps good feet and keeps his hands inside he's much less likely to commit holding. Once he's beat then he's more likely to hold. His hands generally won't be inside when that happens though so that may not be the play you describe. One of the categories of hold is a take down. If you pull or throw a player down it won't matter if your hands are inside or outside. It's different if you over power a defender and pancake him or push him past the pocket or he loses his own feet while engaged in the block. Those would not be holds. As with anything though there is judgement involved in all of those situations. It isn't black and white. Officials use philosophy and experience to reduce the gray.

 

[Ledsteplin]

Re: Officiating Tonight

There's no freezing, he stood over Q and ducked like dribbled his head like a basketball, with the ref watching.


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I went back and took a real close look. He didn't do any pounding or dribbling Q's head. He reached down and pinned his head down. But he didn't hit him or anything. Regardless, he shouldn't have done it and should have been some kind of penalty. But maybe not.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I wont go into specifics but this may shed a little light on the subject. I know first hand what many of the crews are being told in Championship and playoff games.
They are being instructed to not call any offensive penalties that dont immediately affect a play or are not clearly visable infractions like offsides, roughing, delay of game or illegal formations. Also, they make certain infractions a focus for each offical depending on their responsibilities. The others are told not to call a certain type penalty unless its visibly flagrant. The way they are teaching officials now the only fouls every ref is instructed to call and watch for is late hits, face mask and targeting.
So what you get is 7-8 refs with tunnel vision and only looking for 3-4 infractions and not really paying attention to the rest because that call is for another ref to make and his responsibility.
They are told flags are a disruption to the game and if an obvious foul is being made every play dont call it. Because they will then be determining the game. Think of it like a balk in baseball. If its the pitchers natural motion they dont call it even if it’s technically a balk according to the rules.
I have also heard with my own ears the head official tell his crew that one team has a dominant position group and don’t contribute to their dominance by calling lots of penalties on the opposing team.
Basically they dont call by the rule book anymore. They call by the match up and the flagrant and immediate impact of a foul. Which is absurd but you can tell from all of football this is being taught and enforced in all of football nowdays.

Much of what you say is true, but it applies to every game at every level of every sport. Advantage/disadvantage is a factor on many fouls both offense and defense. Procedural falls are a little tighter, but some advantage does fall into play. For example, the closer the player is to the snapper the closer you will rule on formation fouls. Technically to be a back you need to be behind the waist of the nearest player on the line of scrimmage. Two receivers lined up wide will have one on the line and one as a back (otherwise the inside guy is covered and not eligible for a forward pass or to go downfield on pass). As long as their is an obvious stagger between the two the official isn't going to be too technical because it's obvious to the defense both are eligible. That's a good example to your point of not disrupting the game for unnecessary reasons.

One of the biggest surprises to most people is officials have an area of coverage in every sport there are multiple officials covering the field/court. On an 8-man crew like you see in the SEC, the referee has the quarterback and also picks up the initial blocks of the RT. The center judge will have the initial blocks of the LT. As the play develops they will shift their focus to the blocks directly in front of the quarterback on pass plays and lead blocks on runs to their side. The umpire keys on the guard-center-guard and generally stays with them throughout the play. If the play moves downfield he trails and watches for garbage behind the play. He'll also pivot quickly on passes over the middle to help with catch/no catch especially on low passes. The other 5 officials each take one of the 5 eligible receivers based on formation. The deep wings always take the widest receiver on their side. The back judge and wings on the line of scrimmage take the other 3 based on the strength of the formation. Once the play starts to develop they go more to a zone coverage focusing on players in their area. So the deep wings rarely have any idea what's happening with the interior linemen and the referee often doesn't know what happens downfield because he keeps his focus on the quarterback most of the time. That's why you may see an official 20 yards away throwing a flag on something closer to another official. That may be his key so he saw the entire act. A referee/center judge/umpire would never call roughing the passer and the deep officials would never call a false start or illegal formation. It really is common sense once you understand it.

 

[TideMom2Boys]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I'm sorry, but you should get refs from a conference that is not represented at all in the playoffs.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

I lined up a ruler with the tip of his helmet following the LOS and it is very close. Here is the rule:
IMO, when it is that close it should never be called.

Good quote of the rule. Linemen must have a part of their body breaking the waist of the snapper. Tackles especially have a tendency to push that as far as possible and some teams have their entire line doing it. I agree the screen shot shown is very close, but I would bet the wing on the far side warned the line at least once or twice prior to this play to move up. The offense gains a big advantage by starting deep when in pass coverage this is an advantage/disadvantage situation. The fact all 3 guys are possibly guilty probably didn't help.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Thank you for reintegrating my point in an earlier post. By the reaction of the crew, none of them actually SAW a fumble. But they RULED it a fumble only after the play had ended and the OU player came out with the ball.

So how do you call something you didn’t actually SEE?
It MUST be ruled as the offense maintaining possession THEN go to replay to see if their is conclusive evidence a fumble occurred. Not the other way around.

It's likely not that they didn't see the fumble. It's that they didn't see the runner down in possession of the ball. That's when you rule the play dead. Another axiom used is "see leather". Make sure the ball is still in the runner's possession before ruling the ball dead. Otherwise you are likely to have an inadvertent whistle, the worst thing an official can do. Studies have shown 80% of the time when it's close to fumble or down the ball was fumbled. Thus the "when-in-doubt" is to rule fumble if you aren't absolutely certain either way. In games with replay it's easier to deal with overturning a fumble call than a runner down call that should have been a fumble.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Re: Officiating Tonight

If the punch is seen that's an automatic ejection. I would have to see the play you describe to determine if it was flagrant.

Some of the other guys are saying that he didn't really punch. I haven't really had a chance to review it yet. BTW, in the clip where the DB is tackling our receiver before the ball is even in the frame, he had grabbed the jersey as the receiver ran by before tackling him. In the first shot, it appears that he just has his hand on the receiver's back. An instant later, he closed his hand and grabbed the jersey. BTW, have you ever looked at the imbalance in holding calls, Bama vs. the rest of the NCAA? I thought you said you were going to...

 

[cubzwin]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Dude. The Pac 12 is the most likely conference to get left out (if Ohio State doesn't wet the bed). You apparently are not very familiar with PAC 12 refs. They are the worst.

 

[cubzwin]

Re: Officiating Tonight

The no call on Samia was my biggest problem with the refs. Wasn't a punch but he pushed his helmet against the turf for a few seconds while jawing. Samia should have been ejected. He wasn't even flagged. NCAA needs to review that play and discipline somebody. Won't happen, of course. OI rarely gets called on any team. As for the lack of holding calls when OU was holding Bama rushers all day--that happens pretty much every game so these refs were just par for the course.

 

[IndyBison]

Re: Officiating Tonight

Some of the other guys are saying that he didn't really punch. I haven't really had a chance to review it yet. BTW, in the clip where the DB is tackling our receiver before the ball is even in the frame, he had grabbed the jersey as the receiver ran by before tackling him. In the first shot, it appears that he just has his hand on the receiver's back. An instant later, he closed his hand and grabbed the jersey. BTW, have you ever looked at the imbalance in holding calls, Bama vs. the rest of the NCAA? I thought you said you were going to...

I have no reason to look into the imbalance of holding calls, but I do remember reading an article posted here by someone about it. If there are a large number of INC (incorrect no call) grades on plays run by Alabama, the supervisors of the SEC would address with their officials. If there was some kind of conspiracy by the supervisors to not call holding against Alabama it would likely be exposed. Many of the officials in the SEC are auditioning for spots in the NFL. If an NFL observer/scout sees them consistently passing on obvious holds, they won't be considered. The SEC official wouldn't risk that.