QB Competition 2018

[LA4Bama]

Thing is, Jalen threw the screens well last year, and we kept those in the playbook. In fact, we threw several WR screens against AU and they still work reasonably well, but the big reason those were so great in 2016 was A Stewart and the toughness he played with at WR. He destroyed DBs both as a blocker and when he had the ball.

The only thing we really took out from a passing standpoint was the jet sweep since those got marked as passing yards even though it's really a run. We replaced those with a lot more passing to the RBs though. in 2016 the RBs had less than 200 yards receiving on the season and in 2017 so far they're at 350 official receiving yards, and there have been a ton of plays where the pass was backward that then go down as a run even though it's really not.

in 2016 Jalen didn't throw underneath (seams, short slants, crosses, etc) at all, to the point that Clemson didn't even defend against it. From what we have seen in 2017 he's only done it a few times, mostly when games are basically already won. AU gambled we would play the same way and defended us almost exactly like Clemson did in 16 with a few exceptions based on down/distance and formation. As someone else said, they planned to stop #2 and #3. Their gamble worked.

That leads me to this theory: Jalen doesn't/can't consistently execute that part (underneath) of the passing game.

Here's why: that's THREE offensive coordinators who aren't calling the plays that we fans think should work (seams, slants, crosses) with Jalen at the helm. I know they are better at Xs and Os than we are, AND that they know those plays would help us tremendously if we execute them. Forcing a defense to have to defend those routes and in the short and intermediate middle opens up the running game, slows down the pass rush and all sorts of good stuff. I have to guess then that they've tried to execute those plays in practice (backed up by the fact that we did see it a couple of times this year) but that they don't consistently like what they see when we run those in practice. Otherwise, why would three different play callers not call those plays?

I understand your point though - could Jalen be a better version of Blake Sims if we ran the right offense? That's possible, but as someone else (maybe you) said, Sims had a much better deep ball than Jalen has shown so far. Jalen probably has him on pure arm strength so can get the ball there, but Sims has him on accuracy and touch. IMO, Sims also had a much quicker release than Jalen which really helped on the WR screens because the defense didn't have quite as much time to react. All that said, Jalen came to Bama because we told him we'd develop him as a pro-style QB, not because he wanted to continue down the path as a dual-threat QB. 2016 was an unplanned deviation in our scheme because none of the other guys could win the job, and Jalen wasn't going to be able to be effective at being a pro-style QB as a true freshman after being a DT QB his entire career. Also, most of the rest of the team was recruited with the goal of being more pro-style. That is what we are built for - except potentially Jalen. With that in mind, it seems we have to commit to being pro-style multiple instead of zone-read and RPO. Then we give both Jalen and Tua a shot to see who wins. Honestly not sure who'd win. Tua has certainly shown flashes of ability but we don't really know how he'd perform under pressure. Jalen has grown a lot, but still seems to have a couple big areas that would need to improve.

This is what I came to believe as well. I believe it has to do with the danger of a safety behind getting an interception on a pass behind the receiver, or when the ball is late, two things Jalen has done a bit. However, I've also seen him make these passes in a game, so it drives me crazy.

 

[BamaMoon]

That leads me to this theory: Jalen doesn't/can't consistently execute that part (underneath) of the passing game.

Here's why: that's THREE offensive coordinators who aren't calling the plays that we fans think should work (seams, slants, crosses) with Jalen at the helm. I know they are better at Xs and Os than we are, AND that they know those plays would help us tremendously if we execute them. Forcing a defense to have to defend those routes and in the short and intermediate middle opens up the running game, slows down the pass rush and all sorts of good stuff. I have to guess then that they've tried to execute those plays in practice (backed up by the fact that we did see it a couple of times this year) but that they don't consistently like what they see when we run those in practice. Otherwise, why would three different play callers not call those plays?

.

Good deduction there. If it were as simple as calling the plays we'd be doing it. Must mean there is a reason they are not calling the plays.

There's only one thing I can think of and that is the major difference I see in Jalen and Tua. Tua has an incredibly fast release and is exceptionally accurate.

Those are the two things it takes to throw those underneath routes. There isn't much separation on slants and quick outs so the qb can't hesitate and he better put it between the numbers.

I noticed it in the preseason camp videos during the media viewing time. When they'd show 2 or 3 minutes of the qbs alternating throws Jalen's accuracy wasn't nearly as good as Tua's.

 

[rgw]

We have two years of tape on Hurts and I'm comfortable saying that our best offense with him is nearly exactly what we ran in 2016. Any attempt to run a pro-style spread passing attack is a bad idea because he doesn't seem to have the accuracy or confidence in throwing over the middle. The only time we've seen him throw a slant this season were times when the entire middle of the field was vacated. He doesn't trust his arm to make that throw in a window. We need to throw over the middle just enough to frighten teams with RPO passes. We should be running the ball with heavy hand-off slant instead of QB keep. Hurts should be a difference maker by connecting on deep throws (which he throws well) and the well-timed keeper that burns the defense. In 2016, the run game was much more balanced between Hurts and the tailback and it still was hell on teams despite his limitations as a passer. He has improved in 2017 but it is not enough to think we can win games by having him be the offensive centerpiece.

 

[92tide]

We have two years of tape on Hurts and I'm comfortable saying that our best offense with him is nearly exactly what we ran in 2016. Any attempt to run a pro-style spread passing attack is a bad idea because he doesn't seem to have the accuracy or confidence in throwing over the middle. The only time we've seen him throw a slant this season were times when the entire middle of the field was vacated. He doesn't trust his arm to make that throw in a window. We need to throw over the middle just enough to frighten teams with RPO passes. We should be running the ball with heavy hand-off slant instead of QB keep. Hurts should be a difference maker by connecting on deep throws (which he throws well) and the well-timed keeper that burns the defense. In 2016, the run game was much more balanced between Hurts and the tailback and it still was hell on teams despite his limitations as a passer. He has improved in 2017 but it is not enough to think we can win games by having him be the offensive centerpiece.

mississippi state would beg to disagree.

 

[rgw]

mississippi state would beg to disagree.

watch the tape. he was throwing slants against blitzes where every linebacker was blitzing or spying.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

I still think the main problem is our playcallng and playbook.

I've watched Jalen make a lot of great throws this year on Slants, Skinny Posts, Shallow Crosses, TE seams, RB Shoots etc.

The problem is Daboll won't stick with those plays. We predominately run deeper routes that take longer to develop. The OL doesn't hold up long enough a lot of the time and Jalen bails which throws everything off timing wise.

Sometimes he bails when he shouldn't I agree. Someone pointed out earlier he hasn't stood in the pocket and taken a hit as he throws it yet and that's mostly true. He sees ghosts sometime and it's not hard to understand why.

But as much as I've defended him I have noticed he's not making good decisions lately. He's keeping the ball when he should hand it off for one. That's bound to happen sometimes with RPO plays but I think he's 'calling his own number' way too much lately. Though maybe it's Daboll calling it too much?

But worse than that he has begun rolling out and NOT throwing the ball away. Sometimes it's because he is trying to sandlot avoid people to make a play and gets tackled for a loss from being too cute and even worse he's actually ran out of bounds TAKING A LOSS instead of throwing it in the stands which is inexcusable.

He didn't even do that last year as a TF. He's not playing 'smart football' in recent weeks and I don't know why that is really?


He's also made a few post game comments that I haven't cared for either but I'm not going to go into that.

I still think he can be a great QB but we have to put him in a position to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball. We need to completely ditch the designed QB runs as well except for when a team just completely vacates the middle and it's there for the taking.

We have 5-Star RB's everywhere who are better RB's than Jalen because it's their job to BE a RB. It's Jalen job to be a QB. His legs are still an asset and he is a very good runner BUT when he has more carries than our best RB's we are worse as a TEAM. That's been the case a lot and it needs to stop.

I want to see us RPO/Air Raid attack a team with Jalen. I think he can do it and that other teams could not stop it. Until I see us commit and try and Jalen fail at it I can't sit here and say that Tua should go in instead.

I honestly think if Tua was starting this year we'd have just as erratic of an offense because of Daboll's playcalling.

 

[superbamashane]

I still think the main problem is our playcallng and playbook.

I've watched Jalen make a lot of great throws this year on Slants, Skinny Posts, Shallow Crosses, TE seams, RB Shoots etc.

The problem is Daboll won't stick with those plays. We predominately run deeper routes that take longer to develop. The OL doesn't hold up long enough a lot of the time and Jalen bails which throws everything off timing wise.

Sometimes he bails when he shouldn't I agree. Someone pointed out earlier he hasn't stood in the pocket and taken a hit as he throws it yet and that's mostly true. He sees ghosts sometime and it's not hard to understand why.

But as much as I've defended him I have noticed he's not making good decisions lately. He's keeping the ball when he should hand it off for one. That's bound to happen sometimes with RPO plays but I think he's 'calling his own number' way too much lately. Though maybe it's Daboll calling it too much?

But worse than that he has begun rolling out and NOT throwing the ball away. Sometimes it's because he is trying to sandlot avoid people to make a play and gets tackled for a loss from being too cute and even worse he's actually ran out of bound TAKING A LOSS instead of throwing it in the stands which is inexcusable.

He didn't even do that last year as a TF. He's not playing 'smart football' in recent weeks and I don't know why that is really?


He's also made a few post game comments that I haven't cared for either but I'm not going to go into that.

I still think he can be a great QB but we have to put him in a position to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball. We need to completely ditch the designed QB runs as well except for when a team just completely vacates the middle and it's there for the taking.

We have 5-Star RB's everywhere who are better RB's than Jalen because it's their job to BE a RB. It's Jalen job to be a QB. His legs are still an asset and he is a very good runner BUT when he has more carries than our best RB's we are worse as a TEAM. That's been the case a lot and it needs to stop.

I want to see us RPO/Air Raid attack a team with Jalen. I think he can do it and that other teams could not stop it. Until I see us commit and try and Jalen fail at it I can't sit here and say that Tua should go in instead.

I honestly think if Tua was starting this year we'd have just as erratic of an offense because of Daboll's playcalling.

Spot-on, but you missed one point... for the past few weeks on called passing plays it has been Ridley or bust. Numerous plays he's had open receivers and took off running or thrown the ball away because Ridley was covered. On the flip side he has also thrown towards him into coverage when he should have thrown it away or to an open receiver.

Sent from my LGMP260 using Tapatalk

 

[92tide]

watch the tape. he was throwing slants against blitzes where every linebacker was blitzing or spying.

but he was throwing them in the face of intense pressure and won the game with his arm and iirc, his throws, especially on the last drive, were on the money. you keep going on and on about jalen like he is completely incapable of being a passing qb.

 

[UAH]

Very good observations. If we look at the talent at RB and WR and consider how many times Coach Saban has said we need to get the ball in the hands of our play makers one conclusion would be that they just haven't been able to make it work. It is just very difficult for me to understand why Bama can't threaten the edge against any team and open up short zones to the RB and TE. Throws that Hurts can make on a roll out. I felt that Bama could do just that against Auburn so the ineffectiveness on offense is baffling to me. The other thought is that defenses do not believe Hurts can beat single coverage deep and take away the run and short passes. I remain baffled as to how this offense with such talent could be so stymied.

 

[gtgilbert]

I still think the main problem is our playcallng and playbook.

I've watched Jalen make a lot of great throws this year on Slants, Skinny Posts, Shallow Crosses, TE seams, RB Shoots etc.

The problem is Daboll won't stick with those plays. We predominately run deeper routes that take longer to develop. The OL doesn't hold up long enough a lot of the time and Jalen bails which throws everything off timing wise.

Sometimes he bails when he shouldn't I agree. Someone pointed out earlier he hasn't stood in the pocket and taken a hit as he throws it yet and that's mostly true. He sees ghosts sometime and it's not hard to understand why.

But as much as I've defended him I have noticed he's not making good decisions lately. He's keeping the ball when he should hand it off for one. That's bound to happen sometimes with RPO plays but I think he's 'calling his own number' way too much lately. Though maybe it's Daboll calling it too much?

But worse than that he has begun rolling out and NOT throwing the ball away. Sometimes it's because he is trying to sandlot avoid people to make a play and gets tackled for a loss from being too cute and even worse he's actually ran out of bounds TAKING A LOSS instead of throwing it in the stands which is inexcusable.

He didn't even do that last year as a TF. He's not playing 'smart football' in recent weeks and I don't know why that is really?


He's also made a few post game comments that I haven't cared for either but I'm not going to go into that.

I still think he can be a great QB but we have to put him in a position to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball. We need to completely ditch the designed QB runs as well except for when a team just completely vacates the middle and it's there for the taking.

We have 5-Star RB's everywhere who are better RB's than Jalen because it's their job to BE a RB. It's Jalen job to be a QB. His legs are still an asset and he is a very good runner BUT when he has more carries than our best RB's we are worse as a TEAM. That's been the case a lot and it needs to stop.

I want to see us RPO/Air Raid attack a team with Jalen. I think he can do it and that other teams could not stop it. Until I see us commit and try and Jalen fail at it I can't sit here and say that Tua should go in instead.

I honestly think if Tua was starting this year we'd have just as erratic of an offense because of Daboll's playcalling.

but it's not just Daboll who wasn't calling those plays. Neither Kiffen nor Sark did either. I wasn't a kiffen fan, but i'd put money on him calling any play in the book if he thought it would work. He must not have thought those would work based on something - maybe the way we looked in practice.

As far as how often jalen keeps the ball, he is averaging 1.5 fewer carries per game this year. I don't have stats, but I think we are running the IZR/OZR less often, but agree that too often he's keeping the ball instead of handing it off. Someone else mentioned seeing several times when the give read was the right one, and likely would have been a huge gain where Jalen kept it and i'd agree.

 

[rgw]

but he was throwing them in the face of intense pressure and won the game with his arm and iirc, his throws, especially on the last drive, were on the money. you keep going on and on about jalen like he is completely incapable of being a passing qb.

I do not think he's incapable but I think his strengths are accentuated best with a slightly different passing offense and run-pass balance. We need to be "old school wishbone"-like to really reach our potential with him. I'm not saying he can't pass, I'm just saying that when we've tried to drop back pass with him it has been mostly middling performances against quality opponents. We're two seasons in and I'm no longer expecting him to become Watson...he's senior season Nick Marshall type player. He might be able to become the best version of the QB archetype that Marshall belongs but the direction of the offense will have to be tweaked a bit.

 

[UAH]

tusks_n_raider I can't disagree with your observations. It is difficult to understand how we came into the game and were so completely out coached on the offensive side. These slow developing plays with Hurts drifting toward the sideline as all routes break down go absolutely no where. No defense can survive with so many 3 and outs. There has to be some tough self examination.

 

[BamaMoon]

I do not think he's incapable but I think his strengths are accentuated best with a slightly different passing offense and run-pass balance. We need to be "old school wishbone"-like to really reach our potential with him. I'm not saying he can't pass, I'm just saying that when we've tried to drop back pass with him it has been mostly middling performances against quality opponents. We're two seasons in and I'm no longer expecting him to become Watson...he's senior season Nick Marshall type player. He might be able to become the best version of the QB archetype that Marshall belongs but the direction of the offense will have to be tweaked a bit.

So which is easier? Change to a new scheme to match the QB OR change your QB to match the current scheme?

I think I know the answer.

 

[92tide]

I do not think he's incapable but I think his strengths are accentuated best with a slightly different passing offense and run-pass balance. We need to be "old school wishbone"-like to really reach our potential with him. I'm not saying he can't pass, I'm just saying that when we've tried to drop back pass with him it has been mostly middling performances against quality opponents. We're two seasons in and I'm no longer expecting him to become Watson...he's senior season Nick Marshall type player. He might be able to become the best version of the QB archetype that Marshall belongs but the direction of the offense will have to be tweaked a bit.

we were running plays with him that were working, both in miss state and auburn. and for whatever reason, we stopped. i have no idea why we called pass plays that had him dropping back with 4 routes going deep. i also have no idea why our receivers don't do some sort of scramble drill when he is out of the pocket. we have rarely done that (a and m and the barn both have their receivers do this, or at least have in the past). he is scrambling and there is no one to throw to.

i think he has a much better arm than nick marshall, marshall had receivers who would find open areas while he was scrambling.

 

[BamaMoon]

I still think the main problem is our playcallng and playbook.

I've watched Jalen make a lot of great throws this year on Slants, Skinny Posts, Shallow Crosses, TE seams, RB Shoots etc.

The problem is Daboll won't stick with those plays. We predominately run deeper routes that take longer to develop. The OL doesn't hold up long enough a lot of the time and Jalen bails which throws everything off timing wise.

Sometimes he bails when he shouldn't I agree. Someone pointed out earlier he hasn't stood in the pocket and taken a hit as he throws it yet and that's mostly true. He sees ghosts sometime and it's not hard to understand why.

But as much as I've defended him I have noticed he's not making good decisions lately. He's keeping the ball when he should hand it off for one. That's bound to happen sometimes with RPO plays but I think he's 'calling his own number' way too much lately. Though maybe it's Daboll calling it too much?

But worse than that he has begun rolling out and NOT throwing the ball away. Sometimes it's because he is trying to sandlot avoid people to make a play and gets tackled for a loss from being too cute and even worse he's actually ran out of bounds TAKING A LOSS instead of throwing it in the stands which is inexcusable.

He didn't even do that last year as a TF. He's not playing 'smart football' in recent weeks and I don't know why that is really?


He's also made a few post game comments that I haven't cared for either but I'm not going to go into that.

I still think he can be a great QB but we have to put him in a position to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball. We need to completely ditch the designed QB runs as well except for when a team just completely vacates the middle and it's there for the taking.

We have 5-Star RB's everywhere who are better RB's than Jalen because it's their job to BE a RB. It's Jalen job to be a QB. His legs are still an asset and he is a very good runner BUT when he has more carries than our best RB's we are worse as a TEAM. That's been the case a lot and it needs to stop.

I want to see us RPO/Air Raid attack a team with Jalen. I think he can do it and that other teams could not stop it. Until I see us commit and try and Jalen fail at it I can't sit here and say that Tua should go in instead.

I honestly think if Tua was starting this year we'd have just as erratic of an offense because of Daboll's playcalling.

Other than Tua playing with a lead when we've seen him this year, how do you explain how much more in sync the passing game looks when Tua is in the game?

The system Daboll is trying to run is Taylor made for Tua, not Jalen. Even the RPO's work with Tua, even though he's not the powerful runner Jalen is, but he's not chopped liver either.

What we are missing is ball distribution. That's the QBs main job. Not to be a running back but to get the ball into the right play makers hands by pre-snap reads, and quick decisions in the pocket.

BTW, I don't think you are wrong in that play calling has not fit Jalen but if we are talking about changing the scheme to fit the qb's strengths that's harder than just changing the QB IMO.

 

[Con]

Other than Tua playing with a lead when we've seen him this year, how do you explain how much more in sync the passing game looks when Tua is in the game?

The system Daboll is trying to run is Taylor made for Tua, not Jalen. Even the RPO's work with Tua, even though he's not the powerful runner Jalen is, but he's not chopped liver either.

What we are missing is ball distribution. That's the QBs main job. Not to be a running back but to get the ball into the right play maker hands by pre-snap reads, and quick decisions in the pocket.

BTW, I don't think you are wrong in that play calling has not fit Jalen but if we are talking about changing the scheme to fit the qb's strengths that's harder than just changing the QB IMO.

Yes! It is hard for these other guys to run their routes hard every single play when they know deep down it isn't coming to them. Someonw mentioned wr blocking in one thread being an issue this year. Give these young guys another off season in the weight room and I bet their blocking will improve as well.

 

[KrAzY3]

The system Daboll is trying to run is Taylor made for Tua, not Jalen.

Why is that Hurts problem though? I mean why is the solution to change quarterbacks? Hurts has a better resume as a quarterback than Daboll has as an offensive coordinator (remember some question Hurts NFL potential but we know for a fact Daboll was no longer considered an NFL caliber OC). So where should changes be made? For example, Daboll chose to gut a part of the offense that produced about 900 yards last year. That was Daboll's choice, he did that. If Daboll's plan was working great it would be one thing, but clearly its not. I don't see why going with what worked it less attractive than going with what might work. It just seems pretty sad that we're considering sitting a top 10 QBR guy, a reigning SEC Player of the Year, someone with a stellar record, because an OC that never had a successful offense in the past doesn't seem to be putting him to good use.

 

[tusks_n_raider]

Other than Tua playing with a lead when we've seen him this year, how do you explain how much more in sync the passing game looks when Tua is in the game?

The system Daboll is trying to run is Taylor made for Tua, not Jalen. Even the RPO's work with Tua, even though he's not the powerful runner Jalen is, but he's not chopped liver either.

What we are missing is ball distribution. That's the QBs main job. Not to be a running back but to get the ball into the right play makers hands by pre-snap reads, and quick decisions in the pocket.

BTW, I don't think you are wrong in that play calling has not fit Jalen but if we are talking about changing the scheme to fit the qb's strengths that's harder than just changing the QB IMO.

Tricky to really say......I think part of that is Tua has some bigtime 'Gunslinger' in him like a younger AJ. But he's also having the luxury of coming into situations with 3-4 TD leads, no pressure, and the cushion of knowing he can risk throwing into a tight window and making mistakes. What's the worse than can happen other than staying QB2? He won't be demoted.

I don't say that to discount him though because he IS making quick reads and slinging it on the money. But he's also not seen DB's/LB's in zone coverage and thrown 1 pick 6 and could easily have 2 more that were dropped.

Both of their Yards per Attempts are basically dead even. But it IS amazing that Tua has half the passing TD's in only 1/4 the amount of attempts. Hypothetically with the number of passing attempts as Jalen he'd have 33 TD's... BUT... he might also have 11 INT's. Most coaches would probably take a 3:1 TD to INT ratio. Would CNS accept 1 INT every game on average? I don't know.

BUT.... Jalen is always playing with 'The Game on the Line'. He's being SUPER conservative. Probably way too conservative. There's a lot of throws he could probably make that he's afraid to force. Maybe he thinks the #1 reason he's won the job and keeps it is his risk adverse nature......and that if he forced some throws and had a few INT's it would put his job in jeopardy. He's got a lot of pressure on him right now. The type of pressure we've yet to see Tua really face. He might thrive.....he might not.

I 1000X's agree with you about ball distribution though. My main concern right now is the QB keepers. We need to feed our Top 2-3 RB's like we always have. Jalen is taking a ton of touches away from the RB's. He's averaging 5.6 YPC but that's less than EVERY RB except BO and almost 3 YPC less than Damien. His running ability can definitely be an advantage in certain situations but it's becoming detrimental as a focus of the playcalling.

I still believe Jalen can be a spectacular QB but I am in agreement that the QB position should really REALLY be an open competition in the spring. Same Playbook, Packages, Formations, and Plays and let the Best QB win. I honestly like and support both players like I'm sure most all of us do.

 

[CrimsonEyeshade]

I read a story today about some young NFL quarterback who has shown the increasing knack of ‘throwing his receivers open.’ Tua has shown that same skill — throwing to an open spot where only his intended target can catch the ball, making him look almost uncovered. I suspect that ability would transition very well to the start of games.

Whether Tua possesses the rest of the skill set the head coach wants is another matter. At this point, the best we can hope for is that we can clean up our offense and Jalen's technique for the rest of the season.
Come spring, all bets off.

 

[gamersfuel]

as far as people mentioning Tua throwing INT, thats a part being a pass 1st QB. You're going to have more INT's. I'd rather have 350 yards, 4td's and 2 INT than 110 yards 0 INT 0 TD..