QB Competition 2018

[CoachJeff]

i would rather him back up Jalen for two years and learn the playbook than be thrown into the fire.

History shows that QBs don't wait around like that. I wouldn't be completely shocked if Tua transferred this year. I expect him to transfer next winter if he's not seeing significant playing time.

 

[KrAzY3]

What good does I‎t do to share dirty laundry from the lockerroom?

In that context they speculated that Hurts might be losing the locker room, to which another poster added that might be because Hurts is becoming arrogant. Fortunately further speculation died down, but to speculate based on rumors, even rumors with a grain of truth to them can easily get out of hand, especially when it becomes speculating on speculation.

as to the discussion of the RPO vs. Pro Style offense and all of that. my biggest complaint is that a 5 yd slant or 5 yd. drag route beats an incomplete pass 15 yds down field when its 3rd and 3.

This is basically what I've been hinting at all year. It isn't even necessarily the style of offense that dictates working in that sort of thing, it's just the college game itself. Alabama needs to control the clock and sustain drives. Taking big shots now and then is one thing, but the offense really needs more quicker developing routes that have a higher chance of success. That will also create more touches for the offensive player makers, and help quell any dissent there might be.

Yah but how often does Saban directly criticize the play calling?

I think no one really knows how Saban feels about the play calling at this point. I did take his post game comments as not really being happy about it though, but he isn't going to just go out there and say the play calling was bad.

I think there's some middle ground here that some are missing. We're taking sides in that it's like put Tua out there, or Daboll is the problem. I think Daboll can make some adjustments and in turn Hurts can perform better once he does that. Then and only then do I think we can really judge what further action needs to be taken. I'd think Saban is probably mulling this stuff over right now. Alabama has plenty of time to tweak things, and it doesn't take a whole lot more. Alabama just needs to be able to sustain drives a little better, they don't need miracles on offense. If Alabama can't make those necessary adjustments with Hurts and Daboll? Well something has to give and Saban will have the off-season to sort that out.

The main thing though, the main thing I'd say is not to write Hurts or Daboll off yet. Alabama still has at least one big game to play, they have time to try to sort things out, if things don't get back on track everyone will know it and Saban can act accordingly.

 

[ProudTider]

Does anyone happen to know how many short passes from Jalen were batted down at the line of scrimmage this year? I'm not saying this was a problem because I honestly don't know.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

In that context they speculated that Hurts might be losing the locker room, to which another poster added that might be because Hurts is becoming arrogant. Fortunately further speculation died down, but to speculate based on rumors, even rumors with a grain of truth to them can easily get out of hand, especially when it becomes speculating on speculation.


This is basically what I've been hinting at all year. It isn't even necessarily the style of offense that dictates working in that sort of thing, it's just the college game itself. Alabama needs to control the clock and sustain drives. Taking big shots now and then is one thing, but the offense really needs more quicker developing routes that have a higher chance of success. That will also create more touches for the offensive player makers, and help quell any dissent there might be.


I think no one really knows how Saban feels about the play calling at this point. I did take his post game comments as not really being happy about it though, but he isn't going to just go out there and say the play calling was bad.

I think there's some middle ground here that some are missing. We're taking sides in that it's like put Tua out there, or Daboll is the problem. I think Daboll can make some adjustments and in turn Hurts can perform better once he does that. Then and only then do I think we can really judge what further action needs to be taken. I'd think Saban is probably mulling this stuff over right now. Alabama has plenty of time to tweak things, and it doesn't take a whole lot more. Alabama just needs to be able to sustain drives a little better, they don't need miracles on offense. If Alabama can't make those necessary adjustments with Hurts and Daboll? Well something has to give and Saban will have the off-season to sort that out.

The main thing though, the main thing I'd say is not to write Hurts or Daboll off yet. Alabama still has at least one big game to play, they have time to try to sort things out, if things don't get back on track everyone will know it and Saban can act accordingly.

I agree. It's hopeless to speculate on rumor. We don't do it here...

 

[TIDE-HSV]

At OSU we have struggled to attract great receivers because of our offense. Keep this up and Alabama will, too. Bank on it.

I hear it already may have. The product on the field Saturday speaks for itself, I'm afraid. And our WRs, as hosts, will be talking to receiver prospects...

 

[dvldog]

I hear it already may have. The product on the field Saturday speaks for itself, I'm afraid. And our WRs, as hosts, will be talking to receiver prospects...

No reason for the RBs not to do the same.

 

[gtgilbert]

I think it is easy to over simplify a pro style offense though. Daboll's slow developing routes are not the only thing the pro style offense is capable of. Remember, Daboll has no success running the pro style offense, I've been adamant that Hurts should run less and have some shorter routes. Why can't that be pro style? Drew Brees is pro style, but that offense does so many great things underneath as well.

Edit: To me the biggest issue is the the hybrid nature of this offense. I think RPO can work, I think pro style can work. But the offense doesn't have to look like a Les Miles LSU offense does it? You have to call better plays no matter what you're running. I'm still not getting the whole, well that was a bad play call, time to change the quarterback aspect of the discussion. I'd start with calling better plays then go from there.

this has already been discussed. Three different OCs have called plays for Jalen. The first two never called the underneath and in the middle routes to the point that defenses could ignore the middle of the field. As several other posters have mentioned, Daboll has actually called those routes more than the other two by a long shot, but they aren't being executed well/consistently. It's certain that we try to execute these things in practice because Daboll has called them in games and I'd bet all 3 OCs know what being able to use those plays would do for the offense. If an OC sees that either in practice or in games that a player can't consistently execute a particular play, they aren't going to try to keep calling it. As I said, we now have three OCs who either didn't use those plays at all, or only use them to a limited degree. We have to realize that it's at least possible that the issue is Jalen's ability to execute those specific plays or out of the three OCs ONE of them would have been utilizing them.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

this has already been discussed. Three different OCs have called plays for Jalen. The first two never called the underneath and in the middle routes to the point that defenses could ignore the middle of the field. As several other posters have mentioned, Daboll has actually called those routes more than the other two by a long shot, but they aren't being executed well/consistently. It's certain that we try to execute these things in practice because Daboll has called them in games and I'd bet all 3 OCs know what being able to use those plays would do for the offense. If an OC sees that either in practice or in games that a player can't consistently execute a particular play, they aren't going to try to keep calling it. As I said, we now have three OCs who either didn't use those plays at all, or only use them to a limited degree. We have to realize that it's at least possible that the issue is Jalen's ability to execute those specific plays or out of the three OCs ONE of them would have been utilizing them.

Yes, but we keep calling other plays which it was proven we couldn't execute, whether it's Hurts, the OL, a failure to take advantage of the defense AU (and others) was running or a combination of all three...

 

[BamaMoon]

You want to see something alarming? Against Auburn, LSU, and Miss. State combined, Alabama lost the time of possession battle 70.55 to 109.05! That's not ok, and no way that's all on Hurts considering he was bad in one of those games, average in another, and fantastic in a third. Daboll's offense is great at demolishing lesser competition, but putting together sustained drives against good defenses is something he's shown little mastery of.

Some people (which might have already made their minds up) are ready to blame Hurts on all the issues, despite the obvious fact that plays are being called for Hurts that don't best suit his skill set. Alabama does have to decide what they want to do. If they want this slow developing pass stuff, Hurts might not be the guy. I'm just not sure why they want this slow developing pass stuff so much, when in college the underneath stuff can be so effective (and is a far more reliable way to sustain a drive).

First paragraph: This is all about 3rd down conversion rates. I believe it lands squarely on the qb's struggle to thrown the ball to first down targets.

If it's all on the OC, CNS would have intervened at this point.

I think Gilbert is on track as to why 3 different OCs for JH have not not called these plays. Surely all three of them with CNS overseeing the play calls would be so oblivious to not think "Oh let's call a short pass play to pick up this third down."

Second paragraph: I've changed my mind twice on Hurts. Last year for the most part he looked to be improving. But, I was very concerned about him after last years playoff struggles. But then this year, I then changed my mind to think maybe he has turned the corner (and it loooked that way against weaker opponents). Now, I've changed my mind again (to some extent) because I'm seeing a repeat of what happened last year against the stronger defenses.

So, you say some people have made up their minds about JH...my question for you is "Have you not made up your mind about Jalen, but in the opposite sense of not even considering that maybe he's not improving or has hit his ceiling?"

 

[UAH]

In that context they speculated that Hurts might be losing the locker room, to which another poster added that might be because Hurts is becoming arrogant. Fortunately further speculation died down, but to speculate based on rumors, even rumors with a grain of truth to them can easily get out of hand, especially when it becomes speculating on speculation.
This is basically what I've been hinting at all year. It isn't even necessarily the style of offense that dictates working in that sort of thing, it's just the college game itself. Alabama needs to control the clock and sustain drives. Taking big shots now and then is one thing, but the offense really needs more quicker developing routes that have a higher chance of success. That will also create more touches for the offensive player makers, and help quell any dissent there might be.
I think no one really knows how Saban feels about the play calling at this point. I did take his post game comments as not really being happy about it though, but he isn't going to just go out there and say the play calling was bad.
I think there's some middle ground here that some are missing. We're taking sides in that it's like put Tua out there, or Daboll is the problem. I think Daboll can make some adjustments and in turn Hurts can perform better once he does that. Then and only then do I think we can really judge what further action needs to be taken. I'd think Saban is probably mulling this stuff over right now. Alabama has plenty of time to tweak things, and it doesn't take a whole lot more. Alabama just needs to be able to sustain drives a little better, they don't need miracles on offense. If Alabama can't make those necessary adjustments with Hurts and Daboll? Well something has to give and Saban will have the off-season to sort that out.
The main thing though, the main thing I'd say is not to write Hurts or Daboll off yet. Alabama still has at least one big game to play, they have time to try to sort things out, if things don't get back on track everyone will know it and Saban can act accordingly.

After reading many of these comments it occurs to me what an extraordinary job it is to maintain any organization at such a high level. I think of all of the coaches that have moved on, the injuries, the transfers and the constant pressure to play these high profile recruits. It is no wonder that coaches like Urban Meyer burn out. Maybe a game plan can come together and the QB situation be sorted out between Jalen and Tua OR Tua and some of the other highly rated recruits will move on. I am not looking forward to Alabama's next game. IMHO they would not do well if they slip into the playoffs against a Clemson or Oklahoma and would struggle in a bowl game against for example Central Florida where Bama has absolutely nothing to gain and much prestige to lose. This would only hasten the decisions of the families of these young NFL potential athletes.

 

[mlh]

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
2: Outside of injury, under what scenario(s) do you think Tua could be named the starter before the season in 2018?
3: What do you think the likelihood of those scenarios are?
4: What are the reasons why Jalen will keep his starting job?
5: What, if anything, needs to change for Jalen to keep his starting job?

I'm sure that Krazy is putting together a comprehensive answer to your post. But in the meantime, I'll offer my thoughts.

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
If we run a spread RPO type offense, then Jalen is better suited. If we run a standard Pro-style offense, then Tua is better suited. Unfortunately, I don't think either QB will be very successful in our current hybrid RPO/Pro-style offense. We need to commit to an offensive philosophy and play the QB that is best suited for that offense. Trying to run something that's kind of this and kind of that doesn't work. OTOH, there's a reason that we're not putting Tua in when we need to air it out and the game is on the line. I think it boils down to Saban's aversion to turnovers - or even the risk of turnovers.

2: Outside of injury, under what scenario(s) do you think Tua could be named the starter before the season in 2018?
We commit to going with a Pro-style offense that balances runs (by the RBs) with passing. Will that happen? Who knows. But Tua is much more skilled as a passer.

3: What do you think the likelihood of those scenarios are?
40%, depending on what happens with the playoffs/bowl games. I think we're moving back to a Pro-style offense, which is one of the reasons Daboll was hired. But it won't happen overnight. Personally, I think Daboll could do well as OC with Tua at QB running a Pro-style offense. I don't think he quite knows what to do with Jalen.

4: What are the reasons why Jalen will keep his starting job?
Leadership, poise, composure under duress, experience. We know he has those intangibles. Does Tua as well? We don't know yet. But to keep his starting job, Jalen needs to continue to improve in the passing game or none of that matters.

5: What, if anything, needs to change for Jalen to keep his starting job?
As stated above, he needs to improve his passing skills and Daboll needs to design a game plan that fits what he's capable of doing. He needs to be consistent hitting the quick slants and mid-range passes over the middle.

I'd like to see us play both QBs and force our opponents to stop both the RPO and Pro-style attacks. It could be a real spark to the offense if it was struggling to switch tactics, even if for just a few series. Coach Bryant used to bring in his second string for the 3rd or 4th possession. And he didn't hesitate to make changes during the game if what we were doing wasn't working. That's my biggest concern with Coach Saban. He seems to be very stubborn about sticking with the game plan, even if it's not working. In that regard, Coach Bryant was a much better game day coach.

 

[BamaMoon]

I'm sure that Krazy is putting together a comprehensive answer to your post. But in the meantime, I'll offer my thoughts.

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
If we run a spread RPO type offense, then Jalen is better suited. If we run a standard Pro-style offense, then Tua is better suited. Unfortunately, I don't think either QB will be very successful in our current hybrid RPO/Pro-style offense. We need to commit to an offensive philosophy and play the QB that is best suited for that offense. Trying to run something that's kind of this and kind of that doesn't work. OTOH, there's a reason that we're not putting Tua in when we need to air it out and the game is on the line. I think it boils down to Saban's aversion to turnovers - or even the risk of turnovers.

2: Outside of injury, under what scenario(s) do you think Tua could be named the starter before the season in 2018?
We commit to going with a Pro-style offense that balances runs (by the RBs) with passing. Will that happen? Who knows. But Tua is much more skilled as a passer.

3: What do you think the likelihood of those scenarios are?
40%, depending on what happens with the playoffs/bowl games. I think we're moving back to a Pro-style offense, which is one of the reasons Daboll was hired. But it won't happen overnight. Personally, I think Daboll could do well as OC with Tua at QB running a Pro-style offense. I don't think he quite knows what to do with Jalen.

4: What are the reasons why Jalen will keep his starting job?
Leadership, poise, composure under duress, experience. We know he has those intangibles. Does Tua as well? We don't know yet. But to keep his starting job, Jalen needs to continue to improve in the passing game or none of that matters.

5: What, if anything, needs to change for Jalen to keep his starting job?
As stated above, he needs to improve his passing skills and Daboll needs to design a game plan that fits what he's capable of doing. He needs to be consistent hitting the quick slants and mid-range passes over the middle.

I'd like to see us play both QBs and force our opponents to stop both the RPO and Pro-style attacks. It could be a real spark to the offense if it was struggling to switch tactics, even if for just a few series. Coach Bryant used to bring in his second string for the 3rd or 4th possession. And he didn't hesitate to make changes during the game if what we were doing wasn't working. That's my biggest concern with Coach Saban. He seems to be very stubborn about sticking with the game plan, even if it's not working. In that regard, Coach Bryant was a much better game day coach.

Only thing I'd slightly disagree with (#1 point) is that I think Tua could actually run the hybrid version of the RPOs and Pro-set that it seems we are currently asking Jalen to run.

No, I don't think Tua would be better than Jalen in bowling over people in short down situations (the way we've used Jalen a few times), but he's shown the ability to execute the run-option aspect.

Where I think Tua would excel is in his ability to perform the drop back/pocket passing of what we are doing right now. Because Jalen isn't really a consistent threat to beat people with his arm, defenses can scheme to limit his running and the other running backs touches.

What we simply don't know is how much Tua could "loosen up" a defense with his passing threat. I believe he could in either our current hybrid method OR (and more the way I'd like to see him used) in a straight pro-set so we could put him under center more and really execute some play action passing!

However, you are correct that we don't know how Tua will handle the poise and pressure part of all this. That's the thing we know Jalen handles pretty well, but with all that, he seems physically limited in the big game situations to complete passes and it showed the most in the 4th quarter against Auburn. I couldn't tell if Auburn was in a prevent defense when we were down 2 scores, but I can't imagine them not being "softer" than normal in the coverages to avoid the big play, but (assuming this is the case) we couldn't move the ball even then.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

I'm sure that Krazy is putting together a comprehensive answer to your post. But in the meantime, I'll offer my thoughts.

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
If we run a spread RPO type offense, then Jalen is better suited. If we run a standard Pro-style offense, then Tua is better suited. Unfortunately, I don't think either QB will be very successful in our current hybrid RPO/Pro-style offense. We need to commit to an offensive philosophy and play the QB that is best suited for that offense. Trying to run something that's kind of this and kind of that doesn't work. OTOH, there's a reason that we're not putting Tua in when we need to air it out and the game is on the line. I think it boils down to Saban's aversion to turnovers - or even the risk of turnovers.

I have a feeling this is what Saban will do in the offseason. No way he doesn't see the issues trying to be a "jack of all trades but master of none" offense. Yeah, it works against inferior opponents. But as we line up against quality/equally matched opponents, the limitations jump off the screen.

 

[UAH]

I'm sure that Krazy is putting together a comprehensive answer to your post. But in the meantime, I'll offer my thoughts.

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
If we run a spread RPO type offense, then Jalen is better suited. If we run a standard Pro-style offense, then Tua is better suited. Unfortunately, I don't think either QB will be very successful in our current hybrid RPO/Pro-style offense. We need to commit to an offensive philosophy and play the QB that is best suited for that offense. Trying to run something that's kind of this and kind of that doesn't work. OTOH, there's a reason that we're not putting Tua in when we need to air it out and the game is on the line. I think it boils down to Saban's aversion to turnovers - or even the risk of turnovers.
2: Outside of injury, under what scenario(s) do you think Tua could be named the starter before the season in 2018?
We commit to going with a Pro-style offense that balances runs (by the RBs) with passing. Will that happen? Who knows. But Tua is much more skilled as a passer.

3: What do you think the likelihood of those scenarios are?
40%, depending on what happens with the playoffs/bowl games. I think we're moving back to a Pro-style offense, which is one of the reasons Daboll was hired. But it won't happen overnight. Personally, I think Daboll could do well as OC with Tua at QB running a Pro-style offense. I don't think he quite knows what to do with Jalen.
4: What are the reasons why Jalen will keep his starting job?
Leadership, poise, composure under duress, experience. We know he has those intangibles. Does Tua as well? We don't know yet. But to keep his starting job, Jalen needs to continue to improve in the passing game or none of that matters.
5: What, if anything, needs to change for Jalen to keep his starting job?
As stated above, he needs to improve his passing skills and Daboll needs to design a game plan that fits what he's capable of doing. He needs to be consistent hitting the quick slants and mid-range passes over the middle.
I'd like to see us play both QBs and force our opponents to stop both the RPO and Pro-style attacks. It could be a real spark to the offense if it was struggling to switch tactics, even if for just a few series. Coach Bryant used to bring in his second string for the 3rd or 4th possession. And he didn't hesitate to make changes during the game if what we were doing wasn't working. That's my biggest concern with Coach Saban. He seems to be very stubborn about sticking with the game plan, even if it's not working. In that regard, Coach Bryant was a much better game day coach.

Love you comments on Coach Bryant. You recall in the Sugar Bowl against Nebraska he told Stapler to throw the SOB as far as he could. We second guessed Coach Bryant as well particularly in the late 60s. We never could imagine having as much success as Saban has after the lean years with Curry and Shula. It is incredible really. It is natural when we take so much offensive talent and sputter around the way we did on Saturday to attempt to determine the root cause. We have to know that Coach Saban is doing the same. It may just be my loss of confidence but I expect us to do more of that before we field a team that is confident in what it is doing.

 

[Con]

Love you comments on Coach Bryant. You recall in the Sugar Bowl against Nebraska he told Stapler to throw the SOB as far as he could. We second guessed Coach Bryant as well particularly in the late 60s. We never could imagine having as much success as Saban has after the lean years with Curry and Shula. It is incredible really. It is natural when we take so much offensive talent and sputter around the way we did on Saturday to attempt to determine the root cause. We have to know that Coach Saban is doing the same. It may just be my loss of confidence but I expect us to do more of that before we field a team that is confident in what it is doing.

Oh yeah, I guarantee you he is going to work on the problems or he has been working on them. You don't get to the level he is at by being satisfied with what he saw the other day.

 

[BamaMoon]

Oh yeah, I guarantee you he is going to work on the problems or he has been working on them. You don't get to the level he is at by being satisfied with what he saw the other day.

We all have our blindspots. Even "elite" leaders do and CNS isn't immune. You know he notice the offensive struggles against LSU and MSU and yet, because we won those games, I wonder if he thought we were still good enough to ride this trajectory out, even though it seemed to be trending downward (as far as offensive production against better teams).

Maybe the softer schedule and JH's performance against the weaker teams gave him the impression (as it did for many of us), that Jalen was trending upward, even if there were other factors suggesting otherwise (3rd downs, TOP, etc.).

Maybe he loved how Jalen protected the ball and he valued very few turnovers more than being riskier and passing more.

Maybe he fell in love with JH's demeanor and his cool under pressure ability.

Notice I'm saying "maybe" and don't think I'm questioning the best modern coach alive or suggesting he doesn't already know this.

But, if we miss the playoffs, after two years of substantial data, you know CNS will be crunching the info and asking 10,000 questions about all of this. He'll start with himself, and work down with coordinators and eventually players. You don't get where he is without doing this.

He'll decide and we won't...but the reason we are here is to discuss it and give our opinions about it. It's fun!

 

[92tide]

We all have our blindspots. Even "elite" leaders do and CNS isn't immune. You know he notice the offensive struggles against LSU and MSU and yet, because we won those games, I wonder if he thought we were still good enough to ride this trajectory out, even though it seemed to be trending downward (as far as offensive production against better teams).

Maybe the softer schedule and JH's performance against the weaker teams gave him the impression (as it did for many of us), that Jalen was trending upward, even if there were other factors suggesting otherwise (3rd downs, TOP, etc.).

Maybe he loved how Jalen protected the ball and he valued very few turnovers more than being riskier and passing more.

Maybe he fell in love with JH's demeanor and his cool under pressure ability.

Notice I'm saying "maybe" and don't think I'm questioning the best modern coach alive or suggesting he doesn't already know this.

But, if we miss the playoffs, after two years of substantial data, you know CNS will be crunching the info and asking 10,000 questions about all of this. He'll start with himself, and work down with coordinators and eventually players. You don't get where he is without doing this.

He'll decide and we won't...but the reason we are here is to discuss it and give our opinions about it. It's fun!

don't forget that in the two weeks leading up to the arn bowl that most of the folks here thought that jalen would be the x factor in us beating the barn with our depleted defense.

 

[B1GTide]

don't forget that in the two weeks leading up to the arn bowl that most of the folks here thought that jalen would be the x factor in us beating the barn with our depleted defense.

I fell into that camp.

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Love you comments on Coach Bryant. You recall in the Sugar Bowl against Nebraska he told Stapler to throw the SOB as far as he could. We second guessed Coach Bryant as well particularly in the late 60s. We never could imagine having as much success as Saban has after the lean years with Curry and Shula. It is incredible really. It is natural when we take so much offensive talent and sputter around the way we did on Saturday to attempt to determine the root cause. We have to know that Coach Saban is doing the same. It may just be my loss of confidence but I expect us to do more of that before we field a team that is confident in what it is doing.

I agree there was a lot of second-guessing in that era with Coach Bryant, not least by Bryant himself, publicly. He said that perhaps it was time for him to retire. Remember he was only in his mid-50s at the time. I was a freshman in 1957 and he and I crossed paths on a regular basis and spoke. He looked and seemed so much older than 45. Of course, to me at the time, 45 was pretty ancient...

 

[BamaMoon]

don't forget that in the two weeks leading up to the arn bowl that most of the folks here thought that jalen would be the x factor in us beating the barn with our depleted defense.

I was one of them. I remember posting something just like that and said JH > JS.

What's been confirmed is our need to have more efficient passing. JS is example 1A of how valuable that is.