QB Competition 2018

[drwho]

I read a story today about some young NFL quarterback who has shown the increasing knack of throwing passes that get his receivers open. Tua has shown that same skill of throwing to an open spot where only his intended target can catch the ball, making him look almost uncovered. I suspect that ability would transition very well to the start of games.

Whether Tua possesses the superior skill set that the head coach wants is another matter. At this point, the best we can hope for is that we can clean up our offense and Jalen's technique for the rest of the season.

Come spring, all bets off.

Jalen needs an open receiver. Tua can throw a receiver open.



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[KrAzY3]

Jalen needs an open receiver. Tua can throw a receiver open.

The grass is always greener, the backup quarterback is always the most popular player...

The issue is that statement is theoretical when it comes to a good defense. Tua's only playing time against a good defense game wasd with the Alabama first team on A-Day. Under those circumstances Hurts looked demonstrably better. The thing is, he looked as good if not better when he was facing the second team! It wasn't until he had to go up against the first team that you actually saw some of his weaknesses emerging.

Now what you are saying might be true, but it also could be confirmation bias. Tua has shown an ability to really look good (most of the time) against inferior defenses. This does demonstrate a certain skill set, and I'm in agreement he's better at some things than Hurts.

But, I do think people are forming conclusions that might not have a sound basis. To give one example, Blake Barnett had stellar stats last season, some said he was headed to the NFL, even I thought he'd start for Arizona State, and some here openly pondered if he would have passed Hurts as the starter had he stuck around. Well, he's riding the bench in Arizona St.

The issue here is we know what Hurts struggles with because we've seen him in every possible situation. We've seen him against great pass defenses like LSU, Miss. State, and Auburn. We know some things Tua can do, and we fill in the blanks with what we believe he can do. There's a difference though. This is one of those situations where you have to defer to the coaches, because they know things we don't know. If they come out and start Tua, well that says something. If they don't? That does as well.

 

[LA4Bama]

we were running plays with him that were working, both in miss state and auburn. and for whatever reason, we stopped. i have no idea why we called pass plays that had him dropping back with 4 routes going deep. i also have no idea why our receivers don't do some sort of scramble drill when he is out of the pocket. we have rarely done that (a and m and the barn both have their receivers do this, or at least have in the past). he is scrambling and there is no one to throw to.

i think he has a much better arm than nick marshall, marshall had receivers who would find open areas while he was scrambling.

Can someone please, please for the love of God, tell me where this play is? I know some posters think they know the game but haven't even watched it again, and now a lot of notions are floating around that are just flat wrong. This play didn't happen; it is a myth created some upset people! Seriously, where is this play?

In another thread it was said this was on the 2nd and 4 with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter, but if you watch the play, it's actually exactly the opposite of this! There was a slot receiver right (maybe a split tight end but I can't tell) crossing left at the line to gain (4 yrds) who was open enough, a linebacker was behind him but would not have broken up a good throw, but Jalen didn't throw it. Jalen probably should have thrown it, since this QUICK CROSS was clearly the intended route (you can tell it was intended because the receiver across the field was not trying to get open, he was trying to lean into his man preparing to deliver a block. On the same play Jalen also had the running back, Bo, wide open out to his right and easily could have made a first down. Jalen just didn't throw it to either guy. Those are facts; you can look for yourself.

If you want to know how people were mislead, it is because the replay angle is funny -- when they show the secondary it looks like everyone is deep, but that is an illusion of the fact that Jalen scrambled back and the whole line followed him. If you actually look at yard lines, the two guys on the left stop about 8-10 yards from the line of scrimmage, sort of dead ducks because their intended routes are already complete. Actually, nobody was really that deep. Ridley ended up deep due to the scramble as he tried to get behind the coverage, presumably hoping to get a 1-on-1 jump ball behind the coverage (he put his hands up to signal thrown the damn ball to me, but it was too late as Jalen was on the run and couldn't heave it that far).

So, that supposed play were "4 receivers went deep and there was no outlet"; there was actually a quick cross, an open outlet, a blocking receiver, one deep route (who also would have blocked if the receiver had gotten down field), and Ridley who only ended up deep late. In other words, it didn't exist.

Now, this was almost certainly an all too cautious play by Jalen. On this play it was wholly Jalen's indecision that lead to the trouble. But make no mistake, I am not blaming Jalen more than anyone else for this loss. The game was lost for many reasons. Actually, Jalen played most of that drive well the way he always does, by running. The thing that killed this drive was 1) the botched snap, and 2) Foster didn't lean for the first down.

Finally, there was a play earlier in the same drive where several routes went deep and Jalen targeted Hentges over the middle. If that is what people are complaining about, then that is just so ridiculous. It was a good play that failed because 1) Aub clearly held Hentges, and 2) it didn't matter because we made a first down the next play!

I can't even find another candidate for the play that could match what people are talking about.

 

[UAH]

Good deduction there. If it were as simple as calling the plays we'd be doing it. Must mean there is a reason they are not calling the plays.
There's only one thing I can think of and that is the major difference I see in Jalen and Tua. Tua has an incredibly fast release and is exceptionally accurate.
Those are the two things it takes to throw those underneath routes. There isn't much separation on slants and quick outs so the qb can't hesitate and he better put it between the numbers.
I noticed it in the preseason camp videos during the media viewing time. When they'd show 2 or 3 minutes of the qbs alternating throws Jalen's accuracy wasn't nearly as good as Tua's.

With his quick release, action on the ball and pin-point accuracy Tua is a world apart as a passer IMHO. Otherwise he would not have been ranked the top 2-3 QB recruits in the country. With his talent a receiver is open if Tua senses that he can put the ball where the receiver can reach it. The talent on the team was recruited for a QB with Tua's talents. If Hurt's is going to be the QB then change the offense and allow Tua go set passing records somewhere else. He can't stay from an economics standpoint and not play.

 

[KrAzY3]

With his quick release, action on the ball and pin-point accuracy Tua is a world apart as a passer IMHO. Otherwise he would not have been ranked the top 2-3 QB recruits in the country.

Oh please, there are reasons to believe in Tua, but his ranking is not a good one. Alabama has had a few ranked around there. Most of the quarterback prospects Alabama has had have been top 10, including Hurts. Blake Barnett and Phillip Sims were rated #1 by at least one service. So recruiting rankings are an indicator of potential, nothing more.

Also did you really infer Tua is going to set passing records anywhere he goes? I think the guy is great but come on, talk about getting ahead of yourself.

 

[BAMARICH]

For some time, I've believed Jalen was the best guy to lead our offense... but after Saturday, I've changed my mind. Last year when we saw what Jalen did down the stretch, I chalked it up to freshman learning curves and figured he'd improve greatly this year. Despite what many have said throughout the year, I'm not convinced that he's improved much - it's just that he's doing a lot of these things against subpar defenses. Here's my opinion - I think Jalen will win you most (if not all games) during regular seasons. His pure athleticism is on display against these types of teams when passing lanes aren't there. However, when it gets to the best competition (either in the SEC or the nation), he doesn't possess the tools needed to succeed in our current offense.

For me, it comes down to this. If we continue this "hybrid offense" (elements or pro style and RPO), Jalen probably isn't going to show a lot more improvement. The only way he gets better is if we migrate toward a true RPO offense. In the current offense, Tua shows more promise... and certainly would show even more upside if we ran a true pro style offense. True... he might throw a game away during the season because of INT's, immaturity, etc. However, he has what Jalen DOESN'T have - the ability to get a team back in a game quickly when they're 2-3 touchdowns down. He's a gifted passer... and when it comes to the best teams in the land, it takes a QB who can do this when necessary unless you have an absolutely dominate ground game.

 

[westide]

With his quick release, action on the ball and pin-point accuracy Tua is a world apart as a passer IMHO. Otherwise he would not have been ranked the top 2-3 QB recruits in the country. With his talent a receiver is open if Tua senses that he can put the ball where the receiver can reach it. The talent on the team was recruited for a QB with Tua's talents. If Hurt's is going to be the QB then change the offense and allow Tua go set passing records somewhere else. He can't stay from an economics standpoint and not play.

Jalen is a great athlete and runner. I thought he should have been the starter last year and this year, but as Rodney Orr and others have lamented he must improve his passing. He has shown improvement, but struggles against good defenses. Just when you think he is improving he regresses. Yes, the Ol could do a better job of protection, but your qb cannot be indecisive, hold on the ball too long, and home in on one receiver if he is going to be a proficient passer. Defenses simply have to stack the box to stop the run and dare you to beat you through the air. Do you really believe Dabo, Malzahn, Smart, or Riley would stay up at night worrying about Jalen shredding their secondary if they were playing Bama?

 

[rgw]

And in that sense it is an existential question for our offensive strategy and recruiting. I don't know if it is wise to take this offense further down the RPO path. The RPO-centric offense is a bane for NFL scouts because they don't know if the linemen can really pass protect, if the WRs really know how to run routes, if the QB can read the defense, etc. Our selling point is that we prepare kids for the pros by letting them put on tape that NFL scouts "get." I just don't think we should play two years of RPO ball because it is a disservice to the kids we recruited with the idea that we were going to prepare them to be a professional on and off the field.

Hurts needs to show even more passing game improvement for us to be a good enough offense against elite teams. His best ball is the deep ball and that is always a low percentage pass even when the receivers aren't dropping it some. He's not decisive on the short throws both in terms of decision making and technique. I don't know if that can change that much...he's got nearly 30 starts at this point. He's pretty much the quarterback he's gonna be...

 

[JDCrimson]

Why is that Hurts problem though? I mean why is the solution to change quarterbacks? Hurts has a better resume as a quarterback than Daboll has as an offensive coordinator (remember some question Hurts NFL potential but we know for a fact Daboll was no longer considered an NFL caliber OC). So where should changes be made? For example, Daboll chose to gut a part of the offense that produced about 900 yards last year. That was Daboll's choice, he did that. If Daboll's plan was working great it would be one thing, but clearly its not. I don't see why going with what worked it less attractive than going with what might work. It just seems pretty sad that we're considering sitting a top 10 QBR guy, a reigning SEC Player of the Year, someone with a stellar record, because an OC that never had a successful offense in the past doesn't seem to be putting him to good use.

We don't for certain that Daboll made the decision to get rid of a significant portion of the offense on his own volition. Actually I think he was told to do it by CNS. I can see where coach would hate the jet sweep pass which is a component of the 900yds amassed - honestly I hated that play too. Coach probably thinks it's too cute and also think he can target his RBs in a similar way and same or better results with a more physical ball carrier. But Foster running that play would be a sight to behold. However the playbook is changed coach signs off on it.



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[KrAzY3]

But Foster running that play would be a sight to behold. However the playbook is changed coach signs off on it.

A big part of it is touches were takenaway from some of the play makers. More runs, so the running backs still got touches, but less of those short underneath passes, meaning the receivers got less touches. That's one issue, but another is that removing specific plays and cutting underneath stuff entirely is an entirely different animal. Alabama could have sustained drives more easily and eaten some more clock if they mixed in more underneath stuff with the slow developing pass plays Daboll favors.

Daboll from his NFL days liked the deep pass. I can't say it was what he was good at, because his offenses weren't actually good at much of anything, but it's what he liked to do. So, I don't think Saban forced his hand on that. As to the rest, I could see why Saban would want more runs. But, the team is clearly hurting from a lack of adjusting to tougher defenses (even if Saban signs off on the gameplan, he never calls all the plays, so Daboll is clearly calling stuff, like the slow developing route Hurts had to change to save the Miss. State game). They even struggled running sometimes! Some people are laying that all on Hurts, but Auburn threw underneath stuff to counter what Alabama was a doing and it worked. The fact that Alabama has steered away from that shows a lack of adaptability. People here are complaining about Hurts making reads, well if you simplify those reads you solve a big part of that problem. I don't understand how that's not a resolution.

 

[Redwood Forrest]

A big part of it is touches were takenaway from some of the play makers. More runs, so the running backs still got touches, but less of those short underneath passes, meaning the receivers got less touches. That's one issue, but another is that removing specific plays and cutting underneath stuff entirely is an entirely different animal. Alabama could have sustained drives more easily and eaten some more clock if they mixed in more underneath stuff with the slow developing pass plays Daboll favors.

Daboll from his NFL days liked the deep pass. I can't say it was what he was good at, because his offenses weren't actually good at much of anything, but it's what he liked to do. So, I don't think Saban forced his hand on that. As to the rest, I could see why Saban would want more runs. But, the team is clearly hurting from a lack of adjusting to tougher defenses (even if Saban signs off on the gameplan, he never calls all the plays, so Daboll is clearly calling stuff, like the slow developing route Hurts had to change to save the Miss. State game). They even struggled running sometimes! Some people are laying that all on Hurts, but Auburn threw underneath stuff to counter what Alabama was a doing and it worked. The fact that Alabama has steered away from that shows a lack of adaptability. People here are complaining about Hurts making reads, well if you simplify those reads you solve a big part of that problem. I don't understand how that's not a resolution.

It appears to me that Coach Saban does not see a problem with play calling, formations or QB. He sees that we did not execute. I will be difficult to fix a problem(s) that does not exist. Color me depressed until we can admit we have a problem to fix. I am so tired of that excuse. The only reason Vanderbilt is not the SEC East champion is because they did not execute.

 

[KrAzY3]

It appears to me that Coach Saban does not see a problem with play calling, formations or QB. He sees that we did not execute. I will be difficult to fix a problem(s) that does not exist. Color me depressed until we can admit we have a problem to fix. I am so tired of that excuse. The only reason Vanderbilt is not the SEC East champion is because they did not execute.

I'm not sure it is quite that black and white though. Alabama made Sark the OC, the Falcons had to wait until really late to replace their OC, they get Sark and Alabama is left without an OC at a point in time in which every good out of work OC has been hired basically. Now, I think it helped that Daboll was someone that Saban knew he could trust, but if he wanted Daboll in the first place he would have hired him.

So, here's a guy with a spotty resume as an offensive coordinator and almost no college experience running Alabama's offense. That's a big ask. Daboll I think is fantastic at doing the pre-game stuff, preparing the players, being reliable and responsible, but when it comes to calling a game and making adjustments, he struggles against great defenses. That's not just Hurts. Even his running game which crushed lesser opposition, got significantly slowed against LSU for example (averaging 3.2 per carry). It's not like we can point to his success in the NFL as proof that he really does know how to call plays, because he hasn't had any.

You want to see something alarming? Against Auburn, LSU, and Miss. State combined, Alabama lost the time of possession battle 70.55 to 109.05! That's not ok, and no way that's all on Hurts considering he was bad in one of those games, average in another, and fantastic in a third. Daboll's offense is great at demolishing lesser competition, but putting together sustained drives against good defenses is something he's shown little mastery of.

Now, a little while ago there was a thread on this forum with people patting themselves on the back about Alabama not having Sark and instead having Daboll. I interjected that I still had my concerns about Daboll and that Sark would have done a fine job at Alabama. Fast forward and real issues with Daboll's offense are starting to emerge, and the Falcons have things back on track.

This gets back to Saban though. We still don't know to what extend his hand was forced with the Daboll hire. If he has a problem with the play calling though, there's no way that Saban is going to go out there in a presser and say that. Clearly though, now is a time for soul searching. Some people (which might have already made their minds up) are ready to blame Hurts on all the issues, despite the obvious fact that plays are being called for Hurts that don't best suit his skill set. Alabama does have to decide what they want to do. If they want this slow developing pass stuff, Hurts might not be the guy. I'm just not sure why they want this slow developing pass stuff so much, when in college the underneath stuff can be so effective (and is a far more reliable way to sustain a drive).

 

[gtgilbert]

Why is that Hurts problem though? I mean why is the solution to change quarterbacks? Hurts has a better resume as a quarterback than Daboll has as an offensive coordinator (remember some question Hurts NFL potential but we know for a fact Daboll was no longer considered an NFL caliber OC). So where should changes be made? For example, Daboll chose to gut a part of the offense that produced about 900 yards last year. That was Daboll's choice, he did that. If Daboll's plan was working great it would be one thing, but clearly its not. I don't see why going with what worked it less attractive than going with what might work. It just seems pretty sad that we're considering sitting a top 10 QBR guy, a reigning SEC Player of the Year, someone with a stellar record, because an OC that never had a successful offense in the past doesn't seem to be putting him to good use.

Because everyone else on the team was recruited and is better suited to playing pro-style, AND if we don't plan to play pro-style a lot of the recruits we want will go to UGA or LSU because that's what will prepare them for the NFL. As I said earlier, Jalen also chose Alabama because he wanted to be developed as a pro-style QB instead of continuing to be a DT QB.

 

[KrAzY3]

Because everyone else on the team was recruited and is better suited to playing pro-style, AND if we don't plan to play pro-style a lot of the recruits we want will go to UGA or LSU because that's what will prepare them for the NFL. As I said earlier, Jalen also chose Alabama because he wanted to be developed as a pro-style QB instead of continuing to be a DT QB.

I think it is easy to over simplify a pro style offense though. Daboll's slow developing routes are not the only thing the pro style offense is capable of. Remember, Daboll has no success running the pro style offense, I've been adamant that Hurts should run less and have some shorter routes. Why can't that be pro style? Drew Brees is pro style, but that offense does so many great things underneath as well.

Edit: To me the biggest issue is the the hybrid nature of this offense. I think RPO can work, I think pro style can work. But the offense doesn't have to look like a Les Miles LSU offense does it? You have to call better plays no matter what you're running. I'm still not getting the whole, well that was a bad play call, time to change the quarterback aspect of the discussion. I'd start with calling better plays then go from there.

 

[B1GTide]

Because everyone else on the team was recruited and is better suited to playing pro-style, AND if we don't plan to play pro-style a lot of the recruits we want will go to UGA or LSU because that's what will prepare them for the NFL. As I said earlier, Jalen also chose Alabama because he wanted to be developed as a pro-style QB instead of continuing to be a DT QB.

At OSU we have struggled to attract great receivers because of our offense. Keep this up and Alabama will, too. Bank on it.

 

[dvldog]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Seems like we've tried to fix it and broke it.

 

[WylieTexasTider]

Is this seriously happening? One poster makes an unsubstantiated claim and we're already running with that? Can we at least get some attribution before this kind of stuff?

What good does I‎t do to share dirty laundry from the lockerroom? That could further separate the team.

 

[tidefan39817]

as to the discussion of the RPO vs. Pro Style offense and all of that. my biggest complaint is that a 5 yd slant or 5 yd. drag route beats an incomplete pass 15 yds down field when its 3rd and 3. Daboll is a first year college O.C. working on teaching a QB his second offensive system in two years. as to the Jalen vs. Tua argument. i still think experience will beat out raw talent any day of the week. Tua just wasn't ready for prime time yet and he may not be next year either. i would rather him back up Jalen for two years and learn the playbook than be thrown into the fire.

 

[Intl.Aperture]

It appears to me that Coach Saban does not see a problem with play calling, formations or QB. He sees that we did not execute. I will be difficult to fix a problem(s) that does not exist. Color me depressed until we can admit we have a problem to fix. I am so tired of that excuse. The only reason Vanderbilt is not the SEC East champion is because they did not execute.

Yah but how often does Saban directly criticize the play calling?

Saban makes changes all the time to the offense which means he either sees issues with it or is adapting it to try and better match it's strengths. He already alluded to the fact that the game plan wasn't what it should have been and execution is always going to be a large reason why a team loses a game.

Saban doesn't throw people under the bus but that doesn't mean that he's perfectly fine with the way things are. After a tough loss like that the last things CNS is going to do is burn the house down - especially when he is still campaigning to get into the playoff. The committee wouldn't look to kindly on a coach who was insinuating they had a systemic philosophical rift in their approach to football.

For now Saban has to make it look like the team has small and fixable issues that prevented it from winning their last game (in some ways that's true)
But that doesn't mean he isn't going to turn his full attention on why the offensive gameplan was situated as it was. There's a whole season's worth of trend data on record now for CNS to look at and I for one don't think he's going to be content just putting the onus on the players for not executing (even though that'll always be part of the problem when a gameplan doesn't work).

 

[Intl.Aperture]

I think it is easy to over simplify a pro style offense though. Daboll's slow developing routes are not the only thing the pro style offense is capable of. Remember, Daboll has no success running the pro style offense, I've been adamant that Hurts should run less and have some shorter routes. Why can't that be pro style? Drew Brees is pro style, but that offense does so many great things underneath as well.

Edit: To me the biggest issue is the the hybrid nature of this offense. I think RPO can work, I think pro style can work. But the offense doesn't have to look like a Les Miles LSU offense does it? You have to call better plays no matter what you're running. I'm still not getting the whole, well that was a bad play call, time to change the quarterback aspect of the discussion. I'd start with calling better plays then go from there.

I've really enjoyed reading your posts on this topic basically ever since fall camp started.

I've seen you respond in this thread to specific criticisms of Hurts or the offense and various praise of Tua.

What would your grand treatise on this whole situation be?

To help guide your response let me ask,

1: In regards to performance, upside, and player skill set; where do things stand right now?
2: Outside of injury, under what scenario(s) do you think Tua could be named the starter before the season in 2018?
3: What do you think the likelihood of those scenarios are?
4: What are the reasons why Jalen will keep his starting job?
5: What, if anything, needs to change for Jalen to keep his starting job?

These are supposed to be softball questions to help you lay out your thoughts since I see you responding piecemeal but am curious what your cohesive theory is on the situation.