The Church Thread: Chapter I Verse I

[CrimsonNagus]

The reality is that for a lot of people, that's all the bible they're getting for the week - dumbing it down does nothing but make it easier to fill the pews.

This may offend some, but frankly, I don't care. If the only Bible some people get is from a sermon on Sundays, whether it is 10 minutes or an hour, then I question if they are truly Christian. Part of having a real relationship with Christ is a desire to know him more. You can't have that growth from only listening to a guy speak on Sundays.

I'm not saying you must read your Bible every single day. But there should be a desire to study his word in some fashion between Sundays. That can be meeting with others for Bible studies, listening to audio devotions, and times of prayer throughout the week.

If the only Bible you get all week is on Sundays, then you are just going to a club meeting. You have no relationship with Christ. Can you imagine if I only visited with my wife for an hour or 2 a week, would I really have a marriage?

I'm sorry I'm jumping on this soapbox, but it is the thing that bothers me most about "church". I wish the "Sunday Christians" would just leave because they are bringing the rest of us down. Don't get me started on the ones who only show up on Easter and Christmas.

 

[crimsonaudio]

IMHO, you are correlating Bible Study and a sermon. If all the "Bible Study" a person has is a Sunday sermon then they will be hard pressed to grow. OTOH, if I rely on one person to tell me what to think, then I''m in trouble...no matter who that person is.

I'm suggesting that most of the people I've known who have attended services like this aren't avid bible studiers. Broad generalization, but the IME, the churches that have been most active in the community - actively living out the good news - haven't been the churches with 8-10 minute sermons.

And the Sermon on the Mount is a perfect example - Jesus essentially spent the next three years explaining that sermon, as it went right over most people's heads.

 

[Its On A Slab]

I was coaxed out of my latent agnosticism back when my now adult children were young. We figured it was good to get them some semblance of ethics, etc. Other than the basic common sense we were teaching them.

The Lutheran pastor seemed more interested in begging for money for the new buildings. And he loved to repeat urban legends as true. After the 2nd one, I checked out.

The ultimate screwup by this guy was the Sunday after 9/11. The pews were packed with people who just needed to be reassured that the damn world wasn't falling apart.

The 1st thing he said was, "If you came here to be told everything was going to be alright, you came to the wrong place." And then launched into an invective about an ELCA pastor who had appeared at an ecumenical service at Ground Zero that included members of many faiths(Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist). Claiming that this was another example of something the Missouri Synod declared an abomination.

I was done after that.

Your mileage may vary at other churches, but this guy was a single example of everything I hate about organized religion.

You can throw in my visit to a Christian bookstore during the 2004 presidential election and me thinking I was in the Bush-Cheney headquarters.

 

[crimsonaudio]

I'm sorry I'm jumping on this soapbox, but it is the thing that bothers me most about "church". I wish the "Sunday Christians" would just leave because they are bringing the rest of us down. Don't get me started on the ones who only show up on Easter and Christmas.

I agree with most of your post but this part I do not. I want everyone to get it in whatever dosage they can. Some people have been hurt badly by the actions of Christians in the past and need time to open up. God knows people's hearts, and I'm not about to take his place in judging them based on how often the attend.

I do agree that seeing the Spirit change people seems to almost always come from those spending time in the Word and Sunday teachings.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

This may offend some, but frankly, I don't care. If the only Bible some people get is from a sermon on Sundays, whether it is 10 minutes or an hour, then I question if they are truly Christian. Part of having a real relationship with Christ is a desire to know him more. You can't have that growth from only listening to a guy speak on Sundays.

I'm not saying you must read your Bible every single day. But there should be a desire to study his word in some fashion between Sundays. That can be meeting with others for Bible studies, listening to audio devotions, and times of prayer throughout the week.

If the only Bible you get all week is on Sundays, then you are just going to a club meeting. You have no relationship with Christ. Can you imagine if I only visited with my wife for an hour or 2 a week, would I really have a marriage?

I'm sorry I'm jumping on this soapbox, but it is the thing that bothers me most about "church". I wish the "Sunday Christians" would just leave because they are bringing the rest of us down. Don't get me started on the ones who only show up on Easter and Christmas.

If your religion isn't strong enough to get you into church, I'm not sure why you think it is strong enough to get you into heaven.

(You'd be amazed how many people get angry at that statement).

 

[crimsonaudio]

However, a good and active parish will have a plethora of education opportunities.....for those that want it. And believe me when I tell you, we NEED more adult education in the Catholic church. We have way too many poorly catechized adults walking around with no idea of how to defend their faith. The recent surge in conversions, however, seems to be a catalyst for more adults starving for substantial education asking for more. I hope that trend continues.

I don't know if it's the system or what, but sadly, many of the least biblically-educated Christians I've known are Catholic. Those I know attend mass devoutly but know very little of the Word. Not sure if that's a localized experience of mine or it's a more widespread issue with the Catholic church.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

The 1st thing he said was, "If you came here to be told everything was going to be alright, you came to the wrong place." And then launched into an invective about an ELCA pastor who had appeared at an ecumenical service at Ground Zero that included members of many faiths(Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist). Claiming that this was another example of something the Missouri Synod declared an abomination.

I was done after that.

You just triggered what's actually a "happier" memory for me of the same day. But I "get" exactly what you're saying, too.

That Sunday, there's no way to really express how absolutely SCARED we were. And bear in mind that I was in a military medical school that had just had it's first full week the previous week and seriously wondered if they might pull us out of necessity for troops. Several of us students all went to this nondenominational service together - it wasn't even planned but when we found each other there, we all sat together. Then at one point, the pastor called EVERY ACTIVE DUTY military member down front for prayer - for safety, for wisdom, for courage going forth.

He covered slightly things like sometimes war is just and not exactly your choice and not understanding how everything fits together in the divine plan. But no attacks on Muslims or anyone else. And I think over time it made those of us who had been in that service together feel more comfortable and that we had each other.

The Sunday after 9/11 was for mourning, not for judgment.

 

[selmaborntidefan]

I don't know if it's the system or what, but sadly, many of the least biblically-educated Christians I've known are Catholic. Those I know attend mass devoutly but know very little of the Word. Not sure if that's a localized experience of mine or it's a more widespread issue with the Catholic church.

It's not local.

Scott Hahn, one of the best-known Roman Catholic apologists (who at one time was a Protestant seminary professor) opens his meetings with this:

"You're here and you're probably wondering if the person next to you is a Protestant or a Catholic. Well, look at them. Do they have a Bible with them? If they have a Bible, they're not Catholic!"

Again - that's one of America's best-known Catholics who says that very thing, not some angry fundie from south Mobile.

 

[Bamabuzzard]

If your faith isn't strong enough to get you into church, I'm not sure why you think it is strong enough to get you into heaven.

(You'd be amazed how many people get angry at that statement).

Love this statement. I'd change one word though

 

[CrimsonJazz]

I don't know if it's the system or what, but sadly, many of the least biblically-educated Christians I've known are Catholic. Those I know attend mass devoutly but know very little of the Word. Not sure if that's a localized experience of mine or it's a more widespread issue with the Catholic church.

Sadly, it is not localized. Selma is right (and he's also right about Scott Hahn, one of the most gifted theologians living today.) I refer all people wanting to get a deeper look into theology to Hahn. I have nearly all of his books.

As a convert, I was astonished at how biblically inept so may of my fellow Catholics were. The exceptions are always the same: the converts. RCIA classes were interesting because more often than not, people asked me more questions than they asked of the instructor. That is very telling.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

 

[arthurdawg]

I was coaxed out of my latent agnosticism back when my now adult children were young. We figured it was good to get them some semblance of ethics, etc. Other than the basic common sense we were teaching them.

The Lutheran pastor seemed more interested in begging for money for the new buildings. And he loved to repeat urban legends as true. After the 2nd one, I checked out.

The ultimate screwup by this guy was the Sunday after 9/11. The pews were packed with people who just needed to be reassured that the damn world wasn't falling apart.

The 1st thing he said was, "If you came here to be told everything was going to be alright, you came to the wrong place." And then launched into an invective about an ELCA pastor who had appeared at an ecumenical service at Ground Zero that included members of many faiths(Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist). Claiming that this was another example of something the Missouri Synod declared an abomination.

I was done after that.

Your mileage may vary at other churches, but this guy was a single example of everything I hate about organized religion.

You can throw in my visit to a Christian bookstore during the 2004 presidential election and me thinking I was in the Bush-Cheney headquarters.

Good ole Missouri Synod I would guess?

One of my long term friends is a devout ELCA member and his dad is retired minister of the same... They are like PCA and PC USA, very remotely related.

 

[Its On A Slab]

Sadly, it is not localized. Selma is right (and he's also right about Scott Hahn, one of the most gifted theologians living today.) I refer all people wanting to get a deeper look into theology to Hahn. I have nearly all of his books.

As a convert, I was astonished at how biblically inept so may of my fellow Catholics were. The exceptions are always the same: the converts. RCIA classes were interesting because more often than not, people asked me more questions than they asked of the instructor. That is very telling.

I have found over the years that the devout Catholics that I have known are far-outweighed by the ones who are just generational. The latter show up for holidays, Friday fish fries, etc. Send their kids to Catholic school like it was an generational obligation. The latter really don't care what the Pople says about abortion, contraception, etc.

When i lived in Birmingham, I had a good friend who was devout. We talked about the idea of contraception, and she was convinced (like Catholic doctrine) that contraception was "playing God". I respected her opinion, although I disagreed totally.

Another devout friend is very liberal on most social issues, but she disgrees with me totally on abortion and marriage equality.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

I have found over the years that the devout Catholics that I have known are far-outweighed by the ones who are just generational. The latter show up for holidays, Friday fish fries, etc. Send their kids to Catholic school like it was an generational obligation. The latter really don't care what the Pople says about abortion, contraception, etc.

When i lived in Birmingham, I had a good friend who was devout. We talked about the idea of contraception, and she was convinced (like Catholic doctrine) that contraception was "playing God". I respected her opinion, although I disagreed totally.

Another devout friend is very liberal on most social issues, but she disgrees with me totally on abortion and marriage equality.

The "cradle Catholics" can be something else. They were poorly catechized as kids and it shows. Trying to get them interested into a deeper and more meaningful understanding of theology and scripture is often a tough task now that they are adults, but there is a growing movement among the Millennial and Gen-Z Catholics that is absolutely catching fire: the traditional Latin mass. The soaring popularity of the TLM has been eyebrow-raising, particularly since it is being spearheaded by the younger set. (They aren't saying that there is anything wrong with the Novus Ordo, they just prefer the old ways.)

In churches all over the U.S., we are seeing the head coverings making a comeback and more parishioners are insisting on the "smells and bells" aspect of Catholicism to return. Some priests have been lazy with this, but again, the younger ones seem to be on board. I'm hoping this continues to spread and doubly hopeful that Pope Leo is keenly aware of this. These kids are the future of the church, after all.

Even better, as more and more people get on board with the TLM, there seems to be a growing interest in learning more about church teaching and history. This, to me, is the grand payoff of this movement. If it continues down this path, I think the church will be MUCH improved once the Boomers and X-ers are out of the way. I am Gen-X and I would love to see others of my generation pick up this particular football and run with it. I'm sure down with it.

 

[Its On A Slab]

The "cradle Catholics" can be something else. They were poorly catechized as kids and it shows. Trying to get them interested into a deeper and more meaningful understanding of theology and scripture is often a tough task now that they are adults, but there is a growing movement among the Millennial and Gen-Z Catholics that is absolutely catching fire: the traditional Latin mass. The soaring popularity of the TLM has been eyebrow-raising, particularly since it is being spearheaded by the younger set. (They aren't saying that there is anything wrong with the Novus Ordo, they just prefer the old ways.)

In churches all over the U.S., we are seeing the head coverings making a comeback and more parishioners are insisting on the "smells and bells" aspect of Catholicism to return. Some priests have been lazy with this, but again, the younger ones seem to be on board. I'm hoping this continues to spread and doubly hopeful that Pope Leo is keenly aware of this. These kids are the future of the church, after all.

Even better, as more and more people get on board with the TLM, there seems to be a growing interest in learning more about church teaching and history. This, to me, is the grand payoff of this movement. If it continues down this path, I think the church will be MUCH improved once the Boomers and X-ers are out of the way. I am Gen-X and I would love to see others of my generation pick up this particular football and run with it. I'm sure down with it.

The head coverings are interesting. My wife is Orthodox and she will wear a scarf every time she attends an Orthodox service. When we were in Istanbul, we toured the Grand Mosque and head coverings were required for women in order to tour the mosque.

Speaking of Istanbul, we also toured the Hagia Sophia. Built in 537AD by Emperor Justinian. Even though it has been in Ottoman/Turkish hands since the 15th century with the fall of Costantinople, the reliefs are still visible on the walls. Although earthquakes have caused significant damages.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

 

[arthurdawg]

The Hagia Sophia is on my must see list.

 

[arthurdawg]

Laughed out loud at this one. Justinian agrees.

 

[CrimsonJazz]

 

[TIDE-HSV]

Laughed out loud at this one. Justinian agrees.

The Four Lads (1953)