The Perpetual Gun Control Thread

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
44,592
1,324
348
crimsonaudio.net
i think your number is probably a bit high.
Possibly, I simply thought about the incredible number of firearm owners I know and couldn't think of a single one who has fantasies about a breakdown in society or a hero complex.

protecting family and loved ones (or hunting for that matter) does not require high powered military grade arms, or the ability to push high volumes of lead downrange in short amounts of time.
I guess that all depends on who kicks in your front door. If three or four armed people broke into your home, I'm betting you'd understand why some feel the need for high capacity magazines.

Further, if I may, let me add that unless / until everyone realizes that comments like 'high powered military grade arms' are emotional and quite silly in the context of what's available, we'll get nowhere. It's the same thing as those who constantly criticize Trump / Obama / whoever is in the WH - at some point, if you cannot speak in factual and unemotional terms when discussing a topic, you're only going to reach people who already agree with you.

Let me finish with this - I'm not unwilling to discuss magazine limitations, etc. I think they're pointless, but again, they may work - I cannot see what the future holds. But I'm only willing to discuss these sorts of compromises if both sides are willing to dial down the rhetoric and speak in facts.

Ultimately, we can point fingers all day, but those who wish to solve this problem via gun control laws need to explain exactly what they think needs to be done and how it will work in the real world. Working around 2A and the subsequent SCOTUS rulings makes that tough.
 

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
44,592
1,324
348
crimsonaudio.net
Perhaps the Democrats will feel the power of their convictions and propose an amendment to the Constitution to address this issue and then run on that as a party plank.
Really, doesn't even have to be just Democrats - if people want this changed, they have to address 2A. There's just no way around it. While I'd love to see the government work to find a solution, I don't see it happening - it's a legal minefield.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
Possibly, I simply thought about the incredible number of firearm owners I know and couldn't think of a single one who has fantasies about a breakdown in society or a hero complex.


I guess that all depends on who kicks in your front door. If three or four armed people broke into your home, I'm betting you'd understand why some feel the need for high capacity magazines.

Further, if I may, let me add that unless / until everyone realizes that comments like 'high powered military grade arms' are emotional and quite silly in the context of what's available, we'll get nowhere. It's the same thing as those who constantly criticize Trump / Obama / whoever is in the WH - at some point, if you cannot speak in factual and unemotional terms when discussing a topic, you're only going to reach people who already agree with you.

Let me finish with this - I'm not unwilling to discuss magazine limitations, etc. I think they're pointless, but again, they may work - I cannot see what the future holds. But I'm only willing to discuss these sorts of compromises if both sides are willing to dial down the rhetoric and speak in facts.

Ultimately, we can point fingers all day, but those who wish to solve this problem via gun control laws need to explain exactly what they think needs to be done and how it will work in the real world. Working around 2A and the subsequent SCOTUS rulings makes that tough.
"high powered military grade arms" is no sillier than civilians thinking they need tactical gear and training to survive in our day to day world.

we can't explain "exactly" what we want to be done, because discussion is not really allowed. there is no one "exact" solution the same as there is no one "exact" problem and expecting/demanding such in the discussion of how to deal with an extremely complex (and deadly) issue is basically shutting discussion down.

the massive increases in sales aren't because there are ton's of folks in our country who suddenly realized that they need a firearm to protect their family

 
Last edited:

crimsonaudio

Administrator
Staff member
Sep 9, 2002
44,592
1,324
348
crimsonaudio.net
"high powered military grade arms" is no sillier than civilians thinking they need tactical gear and training to survive in our day to day world.
Sure, but we're talking amongst people that don't fall into that group, I'm guessing. I know I don't. So if we can drop that silliness we can actually get somewhere in this discussion.

we can't explain "exactly" what we want to be done, because discussion is not really allowed. there is no one "exact" solution the same as there is no one "exact" problem and expecting/demanding such in the discussion of how to deal with an extremely complex (and deadly) issue is basically shutting discussion down.
So list the solutions - no one here is shutting down the discussion. I'm actually a multiple-firearm-owner with several AR pattern rifles that is willing to discuss compromises, but no one ever seems to be willing to put forth real, workable solutions - only pie-in-the-sky stuff like AUS, which we all know will not happen as long as 2A exists.

the massive increases in sales aren't because there are ton's of folks in our country who suddenly realized that they need a firearm to protect their family
Agreed. Lots of knee-jerk reactions to the false-fears that Obama (or some other D) was coming to take their guns. I get it, I've seen it. But again, acknowledging that does little to curb this violence.

We have to figure out if it's a gun problem, a mental health problem, a societal problem, or some combination of the three. Unfortunately, every time this happens (and it's all too often now), we have the exact same cycle:
- mass shooting
- no discussion or real attempt to figure out the multifaceted reasons that this happens
- knee-jerk proposal to ban a certain type of firearm, which is quickly dismissed
- everything settles back into normalcy until the next mass shooting

I'm as sick of it as anyone, so I'm willing to discuss solutions. But no one seems to have them, or the solutions they propose are as fantastical as the crazy dude thinking he's going to be Rambo when the government comes to collect his guns.
 

cbi1972

Hall of Fame
Nov 8, 2005
17,535
4
48
47
Birmingham, AL
I, for one, don't want the gun culture to go away.

I don't want people to be freaked out when they see an ordinary citizen in a grocery store with a pistol in a holster.

I don't want people to think that guns are for police and military.

I don't want people to think "guns = bad"

I don't want to see school shootings, either, but none of the "solutions" I see will stop them without unduly restricting what I consider to be a fundamental right.

You haven't seen problems until you have seen an amoral government up against a citizenry without the power to resist.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
Sure, but we're talking amongst people that don't fall into that group, I'm guessing. I know I don't. So if we can drop that silliness we can actually get somewhere in this discussion.


So list the solutions - no one here is shutting down the discussion. I'm actually a multiple-firearm-owner with several AR pattern rifles that is willing to discuss compromises, but no one ever seems to be willing to put forth real, workable solutions - only pie-in-the-sky stuff like AUS, which we all know will not happen as long as 2A exists.


Agreed. Lots of knee-jerk reactions to the false-fears that Obama (or some other D) was coming to take their guns. I get it, I've seen it. But again, acknowledging that does little to curb this violence.

We have to figure out if it's a gun problem, a mental health problem, a societal problem, or some combination of the three. Unfortunately, every time this happens (and it's all too often now), we have the exact same cycle:
- mass shooting
- no discussion or real attempt to figure out the multifaceted reasons that this happens
- knee-jerk proposal to ban a certain type of firearm, which is quickly dismissed
- everything settles back into normalcy until the next mass shooting

I'm as sick of it as anyone, so I'm willing to discuss solutions. But no one seems to have them, or the solutions they propose are as fantastical as the crazy dude thinking he's going to be Rambo when the government comes to collect his guns.
i am a multiple firearm owner as well.

we know this is a gun problem (and it is also a gun advocacy problem). it is happening no where else in the world. all of these other countries have mental health issues, societal issues, etc. firearms and ammo are entirely too easy for folks to get, especially in large quantities. (yes, i know this is a subjective statement). gun advocates are constantly trying to make it even easier. yes, guns are a "tool", but they are a tool that can easily provide someone with the ability to kill and maim large numbers of people with relatively minimal effort. someone with absolutely no training, knowledge, etc, can go out and buy an ar pattern rifle and massive amounts of ammo as quickly and easily as you can buy a radial arm saw and then can parade around armed in public. the jerk off that did this shooting (as with many of the others we have witnessed) legally purchased his rifle and the large amount of ammo he was carrying with him. we need to as a society deal with this.

there are a lot of solutions available that do not infringe on the 2a - e.g. limits on purchases (guns and ammo), stricter background checks, limits on private sales, strict requirements on licensing for public carry (including required training, etc). would this solve every problem? no, as long as we have guns in our society, we will have gun violence. but it would go towards limiting the negative impacts. there are long lists of different solutions that are not going to limit the ability of folks to be able to protect their family and home (or hunt, or shoot recreationally, etc).
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
I, for one, don't want the gun culture to go away.

I don't want people to be freaked out when they see an ordinary citizen in a grocery store with a pistol in a holster.

I don't want people to think that guns are for police and military.

I don't want people to think "guns = bad"

I don't want to see school shootings, either, but none of the "solutions" I see will stop them without unduly restricting what I consider to be a fundamental right.

You haven't seen problems until you have seen an amoral government up against a citizenry without the power to resist.
just mho, but i think part of the issue is that we as a culture have normalized walking around armed in public much to our detriment. that and we have normalized the idea that people should be armed to protect themselves from governmental tyranny.
 

cbi1972

Hall of Fame
Nov 8, 2005
17,535
4
48
47
Birmingham, AL
just mho, but i think part of the issue is that we as a culture have normalized walking around armed in public much to our detriment. that and we have normalized the idea that people should be armed to protect themselves from governmental tyranny.
What is normal in Anniston or Kennesaw is not normal in Washington DC, New York, and San Francisco.
 

bama_wayne1

All-American
Jun 15, 2007
2,687
0
46
Gun death types - accidental & intentional.

Accidental - not enough training, careless (mishandling, showing off, weapon not stored properly to allow access by a child), incapacitated (drunk/drugged)

Intentional - malicious with aforethought, self-defense, freaking insane

Did that help?

On a more serious note:

How to stop - Give a full psyche test to anyone who wants to purchase a gun. Review criminal history, medical history, blood test, review all educational records (including school counselor's & Principal/VP/Teacher notes in student's file), review social media, review job history, etc. I don't know man, I really just don't know.
So do you want a full psyche to anyone who wants to speak? The 2nd amendment is a right just like the first.
 

bama_wayne1

All-American
Jun 15, 2007
2,687
0
46
i think your number is probably a bit high. marketing for firearms is based greatly on selling the "tactical" (tacticool ;) ) part of owning and carrying firearms, and it is not uncommon for the gop and nra to couch their advocacy in protecting one's self and family from tyrannical government and some imagined dystopic society. protecting family and loved ones (or hunting for that matter) does not require high powered military grade arms, or the ability to push high volumes of lead downrange in short amounts of time.
I am a member of the NRA and I see a lot of literature. Never once have I seen any that highlight protecting yourself from a tyrannical government. I don't know that it is true but for the most part they refer to a lone gunman or terrorist.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
I am a member of the NRA and I see a lot of literature. Never once have I seen any that highlight protecting yourself from a tyrannical government. I don't know that it is true but for the most part they refer to a lone gunman or terrorist.
it is a sentiment that has often been posted on this board and is also very common among gun advocates.

link

Two-out-of-three Americans recognize that their constitutional right to own a gun was intended to ensure their freedom.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 65% of American Adults think the purpose of the Second Amendment is to make sure that people are able to protect themselves from tyranny. Only 17% disagree, while another 18% are not sure.
link
It was late January, six weeks after the shooting in Newtown, Conn. The Senate Judiciary Committee was holding its first hearing in the aftermath on what to do about gun violence.

Seated at the witness table was Wayne LaPierre, CEO of the National Rifle Association. Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., had a question for the NRA chief: Did he agree with the point of view that people needed firepower to protect themselves from the government?

"Senator, I think without any doubt, if you look at why our Founding Fathers put it there, they had lived under the tyranny of King George and they wanted to make sure that these free people in this new country would never be subjugated again and have to live under tyranny," LaPierre said.

The same argument is being made by a smaller, more strident gun lobbyist, the Gun Owners of America.

"I think principally the Second Amendment deals with keeping the government from going astray in a tyrannical direction," says Larry Pratt, the group's executive director.
 

bama_wayne1

All-American
Jun 15, 2007
2,687
0
46
i think your number is probably a bit high. marketing for firearms is based greatly on selling the "tactical" (tacticool ;) ) part of owning and carrying firearms, and it is not uncommon for the gop and nra to couch their advocacy in protecting one's self and family from tyrannical government and some imagined dystopic society. protecting family and loved ones (or hunting for that matter) does not require high powered military grade arms, or the ability to push high volumes of lead downrange in short amounts of time.
What do you mean by military grade arms? AR15 is not a military grade firearm as it does not have a select fire lever to change to full auto. Full auto is illegal to own without a ton of paperwork and expense. If you mean any weapon used by the military then you have to outlaw shotguns and pistols.
 

Tidewater

Hall of Fame
Mar 15, 2003
16,779
530
123
Hooterville, Vir.
how the "sovereigns" are making their voice heard
If most Americans supported making Roman Catholicism the official religion of the United States would you just shrug and accept that decision? Or is there a higher standard for things that run counter to the Constitution?

In their sovereign constitution-making capacity, they already have made their voices heard, when they adopted the current Constitution, which denies to the Federal government the power to infringe upon the people's right to bear arms. You may not like that provision, but to eliminate/modify that provision is going to take an amendment debate.
If you want to renew that debate (and advances in weapons technology since 1787 make that not an unreasonable position), then go ahead. Propose your amendment. But in the absence of that new amendment, we have already had the debate and the side that wanted to give the federal government that power lost.
 
Last edited:

cbi1972

Hall of Fame
Nov 8, 2005
17,535
4
48
47
Birmingham, AL
not even sure what you mean by that.
We don't have a single culture.

You said that certain beliefs and behaviors are normalized, but there is enough variety in beliefs and behaviors that it can't be true as a general statement.

The examples of Anniston and Kennesaw are small southern cities in conservative states where gun rights are protected.

Washington DC, New York, and San Francisco are the opposite: large coastal cities where strict gun control and a desire for even more gun control is the norm, and the average person would be alarmed at an ordinary armed person.

I am a member of the NRA and I see a lot of literature. Never once have I seen any that highlight protecting yourself from a tyrannical government. I don't know that it is true but for the most part they refer to a lone gunman or terrorist.
it is a sentiment that has often been posted on this board and is also very common among gun advocates.

link

link
Absolutely correct. The ability to resist government tyranny is the real reason for the Second Amendment. Burglars and whitetails are secondary.

But the NRA is a political action committee, so it would be a bit weird to condemn government power while simultaneously attempting to wield it, though it would be nice to see reminders of the real reason for the Second Amendment.
 
Last edited:

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
What do you mean by military grade arms? AR15 is not a military grade firearm as it does not have a select fire lever to change to full auto. Full auto is illegal to own without a ton of paperwork and expense. If you mean any weapon used by the military then you have to outlaw shotguns and pistols.
the ar-15 is basically the civilian version of the m16/m4.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
If most Americans supported making Roman Catholicism the official religion of the United States would you just shrug and accept that decision? Or it there a higher standard for things that run counter to the Constitution?

In their sovereign constitution-making capacity, they already have made their voices heard, when they adopted the current Constitution, which denies to the Federal government the power to infringe upon the people's right to bear arms. You may not like that provision, but to eliminate/modify that provision is going to take an amendment debate.
If you want to renew that debate (and advances in weapons technology since 1787 make that not an unreasonable position), then go ahead. Propose your amendment. But in the absence of that new amendment, we have already had the debate and the side that wanted to give the federal government that power lost.
correct, these continued shootings are just a price we pay.
 

92tide

TideFans Legend
May 9, 2000
38,019
760
123
50
East Point, Ga, USA
We don't have a single culture.

You said that certain beliefs and behaviors are normalized, but there is enough variety in beliefs and behaviors that it can't be true as a general statement.

The examples of Anniston and Kennesaw are small southern cities in conservative states where gun rights are protected.

Washington DC, New York, and San Francisco are the opposite: large coastal cities where strict gun control and a desire for even more gun control is the norm, and the average person would be alarmed at an ordinary armed person.



Absolutely correct. The ability to resist government tyranny is the real reason for the Second Amendment. Burglars and whitetails are secondary.

But the NRA is a political action committee, so it would be a bit weird to condemn government power while simultaneously attempting to wield it, though it would be nice to see reminders of the real reason for the Second Amendment.
gun rights protected <> being able to walk around in public with a loaded gun on your hip

i have a feeling it would be entertaining on some level to watch you stand up to your tyrannical government.
 

cbi1972

Hall of Fame
Nov 8, 2005
17,535
4
48
47
Birmingham, AL
gun rights protected <> being able to walk around in public with a loaded gun on your hip

i have a feeling it would be entertaining on some level to watch you stand up to your tyrannical government.
It would be approximately as entertaining as a school shooting.