Border thread part II

[NationalTitles18]

Legal or illegal?

‘We are the workforce that this country needs’: Key Bridge crew died doing essential labor

But for a Baltimore bridge collapse that sent immigrant workers into a river, the men likely would have remained hidden in plain sight.

www.baltimoresun.com

Their work was both essential and easy to overlook: a construction crew on a midnight shift making road repairs on the Francis Scott Key Bridge.
But for a cargo ship striking the bridge March 26 and plunging the massive span and the crew into the Patapsco River, they likely would have remained hidden in plain sight, part of an immigrant workforce in a country eager for their labor but not for fixing a system that keeps many from becoming citizens.

Six workers died: Dorlian Ronial Castillo Cabrera. Alejandro Hernandez Fuentes. Carlos Hernandez. Miguel Luna. José Mynor López. Maynor Suazo Sandoval.


The families they left behind in Mexico and Central America and those they built in the Baltimore area are now reuniting in mourning after years of living apart and in a kind of limbo: The men worked here, but also supported family there; they created new lives here, but their immigration status remained murky and subject to political vagaries.

It’s unclear where the men fell on the spectrum of immigration status, not uncommon given the fractured immigration system in which rules vary with individual circumstances and the process of achieving citizenship is complicated and restrictive, even for those who have worked here legally for years or even decades.

For construction workers — almost 40% of whom are immigrants in the Baltimore-Washington area, according to one university research center — the disconnect can be particularly jarring.

“I mean, they are building America, quite literally,” said Tom Perez, a senior White House advisor and former Maryland and U.S. labor secretary.

“They’re building bridges, they’re building roads, they’re building buildings,” he said in an interview with The Baltimore Sun. “And they don’t have that bridge to citizenship yet, even though they can work and they’ve been here for 30 years and their kids are U.S. citizens.”

___________________

There's their names if anyone is interested in knowing them. Just hard working men who died doing their job in an unfortunate (probably preventable) accident.

But it appears that it is still unclear what their immigration legal status was befoe their deaths.

 

[Bazza]

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never had a problem with immigrants.

I grew up in a family that treated everyone with respect no matter their demographic.

Some may remember the story I told about my Dad who after retiring from the Navy became an employment counselor. And the stories he shared at the dinner table sometimes about people looking for help with their careers, etc.

I loved and respected my father and bought into his philosophy of helping others regardless of their demographics.

Adding to this.......after getting my degree in Ornamental Horticulture in 1977 I've worked in the green industry ever since......and as most know it's a branch of Agriculture which traditional employs people from all kinds of heritages. I've worked along side of every kind of person that exists. Every kind. And have never had any stupid bias. Quite the contrary.

Getting to the topic of the border......in my not so humble opinion....most people in the county are perfectly fine with IMMIGRANTS. In fact in many cases they not only embrace immigration/immigrants they love immigration/immigrants.

What they/many don't like seeing is people:
a) cutting in line
and
b) coming into the country without any kind of screening

Those folks are not IMMIGRANTS. They are ILLEGALS and I can't fault the country for holding that against the current administration - regardless of whose fault it is.

I'm not going to get into the weeds on this subject - I think most of us fully understand the politics of it as well as the legislative issues at hand.

With the election on the way really the only thing that counts right now is the numbers (polling).

PS - the guy I met today at the gym travels a lot to Nico and he and I were sharing stories about how great the place is to visit. Admittedly his grasp of Espaniol is far better than mine but I try.......

 

[NationalTitles18]

I can't speak for anyone else but I've never had a problem with immigrants.

I grew up in a family that treated everyone with respect no matter their demographic.

Some may remember the story I told about my Dad who after retiring from the Navy became an employment counselor. And the stories he shared at the dinner table sometimes about people looking for help with their careers, etc.

I loved and respected my father and bought into his philosophy of helping others regardless of their demographics.

Adding to this.......after getting my degree in Ornamental Horticulture in 1977 I've worked in the green industry ever since......and as most know it's a branch of Agriculture which traditional employs people from all kinds of heritages. I've worked along side of every kind of person that exists. Every kind. And have never had any stupid bias. Quite the contrary.

Getting to the topic of the border......in my not so humble opinion....most people in the county are perfectly fine with IMMIGRANTS. In fact in many cases they not only embrace immigration/immigrants they love immigration/immigrants.

What they/many don't like seeing is people:
a) cutting in line
and
b) coming into the country without any kind of screening

Those folks are not IMMIGRANTS. They are ILLEGALS and I can't fault the country for holding that against the current administration - regardless of whose fault it is.

I'm not going to get into the weeds on this subject - I think most of us fully understand the politics of it as well as the legislative issues at hand.

With the election on the way really the only thing that counts right now is the numbers (polling).

PS - the guy I met today at the gym travels a lot to Nico and he and I were sharing stories about how great the place is to visit. Admittedly his grasp of Espaniol is far better than mine but I try.......

Well, they are immigrants either way.

You likely already know our immigration system is completely broken. It doesn’t work for citizens or immigrants. And some like keeping it that way. And unfortunately some are against immigrants of any kind, or at least of certain kinds. No getting around that.

I know both legal and illegal/undocumented immigrants up close and personal. I can’t think of a single one that isn’t a wonderful hard working person. One is a dreamer and IIRC next year he gets citizenship. Another is graduating from nursing school in two months and I’m going with Mrs. NT18 to the graduation. Another is a nurse I use to work with who taught in her old country. Her husband got caught working without a permit and that was a mess that taught me our immigration system is stupid when it prevents a man from working to support his family. Yes. Prevents. It was illegal for a legal immigrant to work. Ain’t that something.

When Trump was in office we had some undocumented immigrants that were afraid to get healthcare and dropped off the radar for a while thanks to him. That was quite unfortunate.

One thing I don’t understand is this: if even republicans want legal and sensible immigration policy then why can’t we get good reform laws passed and why don’t they demand it?

I think we’re too busy making political hay off the illegal boogey man.

 

[AWRTR]

Well, they are immigrants either way.

You likely already know our immigration system is completely broken. It doesn’t work for citizens or immigrants. And some like keeping it that way. And unfortunately some are against immigrants of any kind, or at least of certain kinds. No getting around that.

I know both legal and illegal/undocumented immigrants up close and personal. I can’t think of a single one that isn’t a wonderful hard working person. One is a dreamer and IIRC next year he gets citizenship. Another is graduating from nursing school in two months and I’m going with Mrs. NT18 to the graduation. Another is a nurse I use to work with who taught in her old country. Her husband got caught working without a permit and that was a mess that taught me our immigration system is stupid when it prevents a man from working to support his family. Yes. Prevents. It was illegal for a legal immigrant to work. Ain’t that something.

When Trump was in office we had some undocumented immigrants that were afraid to get healthcare and dropped off the radar for a while thanks to him. That was quite unfortunate.

One thing I don’t understand is this: if even republicans want legal and sensible immigration policy then why can’t we get good reform laws passed and why don’t they demand it?

I think we’re too busy making political hay off the illegal boogey man.

We can’t get “reform” because the two sides can’t get close to agreeing on what should be reformed. The bill that passed the senate wasn’t bipartisan. It was a few Rep senators working with Dems and the WH. That’s a good thing overall but it has to be broader and neither side will budge enough. Dems don’t really want to stop illegal immigration They are ok with an open border. The senate bill wouldnt have really stopped illegal immigration over the long or short term like it should be stopped.

 

[NationalTitles18]

We can’t get “reform” because the two sides can’t get close to agreeing on what should be reformed. The bill that passed the senate wasn’t bipartisan. It was a few Rep senators working with Dems and the WH. That’s a good thing overall but it has to be broader and neither side will budge enough. Dems don’t really want to stop illegal immigration They are ok with an open border. The senate bill wouldnt have really stopped illegal immigration over the long or short term like it should be stopped.

Those are great republicans maga talking points. Any evidence to support those statements toward the end?

If dems are for open borders and won't budge enough then why did they work with a few reps to try to get something done? Your points are incongruous and makes no sense.

But more importantly:

It seems you agree that larger reform needs to take place. Great. I'd love to see more demand that than make boogey men out of immigrants.

 

[Bazza]

Well, they are immigrants either way.

You likely already know our immigration system is completely broken. It doesn’t work for citizens or immigrants. And some like keeping it that way. And unfortunately some are against immigrants of any kind, or at least of certain kinds. No getting around that.

I know both legal and illegal/undocumented immigrants up close and personal. I can’t think of a single one that isn’t a wonderful hard working person. One is a dreamer and IIRC next year he gets citizenship. Another is graduating from nursing school in two months and I’m going with Mrs. NT18 to the graduation. Another is a nurse I use to work with who taught in her old country. Her husband got caught working without a permit and that was a mess that taught me our immigration system is stupid when it prevents a man from working to support his family. Yes. Prevents. It was illegal for a legal immigrant to work. Ain’t that something.

When Trump was in office we had some undocumented immigrants that were afraid to get healthcare and dropped off the radar for a while thanks to him. That was quite unfortunate.

One thing I don’t understand is this: if even republicans want legal and sensible immigration policy then why can’t we get good reform laws passed and why don’t they demand it?

I think we’re too busy making political hay off the illegal boogey man.

Without getting into the political finger-pointing......

Most of these folks are GOOD PEOPLE......totally agree.

Unfortunately the optics right now are working against all immigrants.....and that is the REAL tragedy here!

 

[NationalTitles18]

Without getting into the political finger-pointing......

Most of these folks are GOOD PEOPLE......totally agree.

Unfortunately the optics right now are working against all immigrants.....and that is the REAL tragedy here!

I agree, but I will point fingers directly at those who demonize immigrants instead of raising their voices to make their representatives work on solutions that are beneficial to everyone.

 

[JDCrimson]

Imo, Republicans won't allow immigration reform ever as long as they have some legislative leverage. They had their whoops with outlawing abortion and they are seeing that gradually backfire on them. They are inflaming immigration to overcome their political misstep with abortion.

If abortion becomes legalized and immigration reform is achieved, what are the Republicans gonna have to enrage their base?

 

[AWRTR]

Those are great republicans maga talking points. Any evidence to support those statements toward the end?

If dems are for open borders and won't budge enough then why did they wok with a few reps to try to get something done? Your points are incongruous and makes no sense.

But more importantly:

It seems you agree that larger reform needs to take place. Great. I'd love to see more demand that than make boogey men out of immigrants.

The bill didn’t actually close the border. Go read it for yourself.

 

[NationalTitles18]

The bill didn’t actually close the border. Go read it for yourself.

Who said it did?

Why would we want the border completely closed?

 

[AWRTR]

Who said it did?

Why would we want the border completely closed?

We want no illegal immigration. That’s the closed a healthy majority wants.

 

[NationalTitles18]

We want no illegal immigration. That’s the closed a healthy majority wants.

and few would disagree other than those made of straw

 

[AWRTR]

and few would disagree other than those made of straw

Hahahaha nice! Then why not go to the republicans and say let’s end the illegal immigartion? Make them say no to that. Wouldn’t that make sense politically?

 

[NationalTitles18]

Hahahaha nice! Then why not go to the republicans and say let’s end the illegal immigartion? Make them say no to that. Wouldn’t that make sense politically?

Your proposal to end illegal immigration is...?

Or is it really that simple?

 

[AWRTR]

Your proposal to end illegal immigration is...?

Or is it really that simple?

A simple bill would do it.

Build barriers where necessary.

Anyone entering not through a legal port of entry is immediately sent back across when caught no questions asked. Even if they get in the country and you catch them three years later they are still out. If they after this it’s a felony.

A system put in place to apply for asylum in the country of origin for the person applying. That already kind of exists but expand it.

Anyone coming to apply for asylum at the border will be held in custody or remain in the country bordering the US until their application is adjudicated.

Much stiffer asylum standards should be in place. Real personal threat to safety must be shown. It wouldn’t be hard to raise those standards.

a guest worker program should be put in place to make sure necessary workers can come in and work legally. This system could be managed by the labor department as far as projecting how many needed. This would make all these workers above board and make it much more difficult to take advantage of them. They could renew their status every so often and if found guilty of a felony or a list of crimes they would be deported after serving their sentence and never allowed in again. This system would make it easier to do a worker verification system so that people not on the guest worker program can’t get jobs. If a company is employing people who are.not supposed to be here then drop the hammer of God down on the company. Fines
penalties and the like would make it hurt.

You could have current illegals apply for the guest worker program. If they meet the requirements then they can have a legal status. Give them a grace period to do so and if they don’t then when caught they are out of the country immediately

Hire more CBP, but they won’t be babysitters and travel agents. They will patrol the border and enforce laws.

Designate the cartels as terrorist organizations and go after all of their tentacles in the US with everything we have. Push Mexico to jointly work to take them out. Not sure the current Mexican government would be any help though.

When people figure out they will be sent home if they don’t go through the proper channels they will stop coming. It will take a minute for them to figure it out. Some will test the system and when we follow through everyone will get the message.

See simple. 😁

Let the Dems offer this and watch AOC’s head explode.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Build barriers where necessary.

Barriers can have a place, but not every place needs barriers and some places are just not reasonably feasible. They have limited usefulness.

Anyone entering not through a legal port of entry is immediately sent back across when caught no questions asked.

This will run afoul of federal law in its current form and also against treaty obligations to which the US willingly signed on - specifically regarding asylum seekers.

A system put in place to apply for asylum in the country of origin for the person applying. That already kind of exists but expand it.

Biden has made this easier and expanded it but then got criticized with claims he is letting in illegal immigrants. I wonder if you support this program or what you would change about it.

Anyone coming to apply for asylum at the border will be held in custody or remain in the country bordering the US until their application is adjudicated.

I don't see the need for holding everyone until their case is adjudicated, but one of the things in the bill that Trump and republicans killed was funding for additional resources to adjudicate cases in a timely manner instead of years later. Wouldn't it be good to have that?

Much stiffer asylum standards should be in place. Real personal threat to safety must be shown. It wouldn’t be hard to raise those standards.

My understanding - limited as it is - is that the standards are fairly high and vary from one country to another. Would an authoritarian government showing real violence or hostility to certain groups qualify or would the asylum seeker need to be killed first? (only slightly tongue in cheek)

a guest worker program should be put in place to make sure necessary workers can come in and work legally.

We have a visa program but it in broken. It should be more flexible in my humble opinion, similar to how you laid out.

If a company is employing people who are.not supposed to be here then drop the hammer of God down on the company. Fines
penalties and the like would make it hurt.

These penalties are typically not enforced by any administration.

It seems you would like immigration policy streamlined, responsive to current needs, flexible, and geared to making legal immigration the best choice for people who want to come here so that they can be vetted appropriately. Makes sense, actually - and it's what I believe most people want even if the sticky details are where the problems arise. But that's not anything that couldn't be hashed out if everyone came to the table in the spirit of compromise and working across divides.

These folks whose parents brought them here and this is all they know should have a path to citizenship, like my friend. They had no control over the circumstances of their entry. This is where common sense and basic humanity enter the picture.

See. We aren't that far apart. Yet, you seem to think we are. You criticize AOCs immigration policy but I' bet neither of us could accurately and comprehensively explain her full stance on immigration. Oh, we could pick out this or that, but do we know where she stands overall and on these specific issues? I don't fully know. I doubt you do. But she makes a great boogey woman. And yet there is no criticism of republicans killing a bill that although not comprehensive would have made some improvements and built a bridge for future work.

 

[AWRTR]

Barriers can have a place, but not every place needs barriers and some places are just not reasonably feasible. They have limited usefulness.

That’s why I said where needed. I agree they aren’t appropriate everywhere


This will run afoul of federal law in its current form and also against treaty obligations to which the US willingly signed on - specifically regarding asylum seekers.

Federal law would change and to be honest the treaty obligations can be placed where the sun doesn’t shine. Countries ignore treaties all the time. Maybe we should too.


Biden has made this easier and expanded it but then got criticized with claims he is letting in illegal immigrants. I wonder if you support this program or what you would change about it.

I support it. Paired with stiffer asylum qualifications it could work well.

I don't see the need for holding everyone until their case is adjudicated, but one of the things in the bill that Trump and republicans killed was funding for additional resources to adjudicate cases in a timely manner instead of years later. Wouldn't it be good to have that?

Yes it would be good to have. If you hold them it encourages them to use the system discussed above and makes sure no one just disappears or as few as possible disappear.

My understanding - limited as it is - is that the standards are fairly high and vary from one country to another. Would an authoritarian government showing real violence or hostility to certain groups qualify or would the asylum seeker need to be killed first? (only slightly tongue in cheek)

Yes that would qualify.

We have a visa program but it in broken. It should be more flexible in my humble opinion, similar to how you laid out.

Agreed.

These penalties are typically not enforced by any administration.

They should be and must be for a system to work

It seems you would like immigration policy streamlined, responsive to current needs, flexible, and geared to making legal immigration the best choice for people who want to come here so that they can be vetted appropriately. Makes sense, actually - and it's what I believe most people want even if the sticky details are where the problems arise. But that's not anything that couldn't be hashed out if everyone came to the table in the spirit of compromise and working across divides.

Agreed

These folks whose parents brought them here and this is all they know should have a path to citizenship, like my friend. They had no control over the circumstances of their entry. This is where common sense and basic humanity enter the picture.

I think you are correct. I live in south Florida and know people in this situation. They could be included in the bill. These folks know nothing but America and should be put on an easy path to citizenship.

See. We aren't that far apart. Yet, you seem to think we are. You criticize AOCs immigration policy but I' bet neither of us could accurately and comprehensively explain her full stance on immigration. Oh, we could pick out this or that, but do we know where she stands overall and on these specific issues? I don't fully know. I doubt you do. But she makes a great boogey woman. And yet there is no criticism of republicans killing a bill that although not comprehensive would have made some improvements and built a bridge for future work.

She is a boogeyman woman. I don’t see her any other way. She’s to far left just like MTG is too far right. Take out her idiocy with Jan. 6th. That’s beyond the pale. I’m just speaking about her voting record and positions.

We need to stop with bills like the last one that are half measures that won’t fix anything really. It just picks around the edges of the issue. Go all in and fix it. We do agree about many points of this.

 

[92tide]

But she makes a great boogey woman. And yet there is no criticism of republicans killing a bill that although not comprehensive would have made some improvements and built a bridge for future work.

funny how that works.

 

[NationalTitles18]

We need to stop with bills like the last one that are half measures that won’t fix anything really. It just picks around the edges of the issue. Go all in and fix it. We do agree about many points of this.

I agree, but it was attempted solely because one side (we know which one) refuses to take on comprehensive reform (and now small measure reforms as well).

I'm not surprised we agree on the big picture at all.

The details can be compromised and not everyone will get everything they want.

This has been a good faith discussion. I like it.

I wish we all held our representatives to a standard to engage in good faith negotiations and focused on that instead of rehashing the divisive talking points of idiot politicians.

 

[NationalTitles18]

We need to stop with bills like the last one that are half measures that won’t fix anything really. It just picks around the edges of the issue. Go all in and fix it.

Sorry, but wanted to add:

Getting something is better than getting nothing. Taking your ball and going home accomplishes nothing.