News Article: Obama Lifts Ban on Abortions

uafan4life

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Either it's a life, as you insist, or its not.

Thus the inconsistency of this argument.

If you base your argument on abortion stopping a beating heart, then who are you to play God in an instance of rape or incest.

Or maybe I should capitalize or use upper case.
This is another instance of misunderstanding a stance. A person can have two different functional stances on an issue and not be contradictory to each other, just two different perspectives.

I believe that abortion is murder. From a moral standpoint this is reprehensible and should not be allowed. From a moral perspective.

From a political (or social) perspective, government should not be dictating morals, just protecting our rights. This is what "separation of church and state" was intended to be about - and only that. It's been so abused in recent years that it's sickening. All it was intended to do was keep the government from running the church and the church from running the government. They were simply trying to avoid the catastrophe of government from the middle ages. There was the state (country) government, and then the "Holy Roman Church" which governed all the governments of Europe. The church had control over the state. The knee-jerk reaction to that would be to have the state control the church. All the founding fathers wanted to avoid was letting the church mandate government legislation and the government mandate morals.

Now, off the mini-rant, I don't want the government legislating morals, or even legislating based solely on a moral stance. The government's job is not to determine or enforce moral standards. It's not the Church's either, although many try and have tried to do just that. That's up to God, and God alone.

The government's job is to protect the rights of those it governs.

I think that an unborn human's right to live should outweigh the right of a mother's convenience. That's from a political, or social, perspective.

Taking the life of another human is wrong. However, both God and government have allowed exceptions to that rule. Always have and always will. It's called justification.

From a moral perspective, there should be no allowances for abortion.

From a social or political perspective there almost has to be.

And instances of rape or incest obviously do not fall into the "out of pure convenience" category as they were forced and not a result of the woman's choice. Those are, relatively, few and far between, although still all too common.

I can support both of those stances without contradicting myself. My personal beliefs of right and wrong on an issue do not have to exactly match what I believe the government should do about an issue. There are limitations to what government can, and should, be able to legislate. And those are to be based on the established standards in conjunction with societal standards. When a majority of the country's citizens follow a particular moral standard, the societal standards will often follow those standards. However, the government should legislate based on those societal standards, and not the moral standard itself. To do so would violate our right to freedom of religion.

If a woman chooses to take life away from an unborn child, that is morally wrong, but that is between her and her God.

The political or social perspective is what is complicated, in defining what is and is not acceptable, or an exception to the unborn child's right to live. As I stated earlier, from a political standpoint there almost has to be exceptions to the rule. The problem is identifying, justifying, and enforcing those exceptions.

As for the single mother being "forced" to have and raise a child and choose between in and an education, etc. That is a really bad argument. Even if she is forced to have the child, she doesn't have to keep it. I know that there are also programs, probably through private agencies, that would allow an adopting family to take care of the woman's medical bills throughout her pregnancy and pay the costs and fees associated with the adoption.

I would much, much, much rather see tax dollars spent to support the woman (and child) throughout her pregnancy and assist with the adoption process than go to fund abortions.

If the system was there, working properly, working efficiently for these mothers to understand and take advantage of these options then there would be families to take the babies.

The problem is when these babies "fall through the cracks" of the system. We need to get these children into the arms of families who want them at birth, not 1 or 2 or 5 years down the line.
 

TRUTIDE

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You merely stated that the pro-choice folks try to confuse the issue. Then, never addressed the logical inconsistency in your own argument.
What is to address? Is it not clear from my numerous posts that I do draw a distinction between aborting a child because of rape and aborting a child out of conveinance? Is it not clear that I can see be for capital punishment for our worst criminals or that I support killing as self defense but am against the senseless killing of unborn children? Do I need to quote myself from my other posts?

Does my answer not fit the definition you have given to my values?

Either you support a total ban on abortions or you're not being consistent.
Let's do this again...

Either you support the killing of all children or you are not being consistent. /sarc off
 
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I

It's On A Slab

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What is to address? Is it not clear from my numerous posts that I do draw a distinction between aborting a child because of rape and aborting a child out of conveinance? ....but am against the senseless killing of unborn children?
Let's do this again...

Either you support the killing of all children or you are not being consistent. /sarc off
You are being intentionally obtuse.

Why is aborting a fetus conceived by incest or rape not a "senseless killing" under your very own definition?
 

jthomas666

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If you believe that abortion is murder, then it is difficult to reconcile that with allowing abortions for rape and incest--a fetus is a fetus is a fetus, after all. How is it not murder simply because of the circumstances of the conception?

What's really interesting, though, is that the justification for abortion in such instances has nothing to do with the viability of the fetus, but rather the emotional trauma of a woman or girl being forced to bring a child of incest or rape to term--in other words, it's a (mental) health exception.

Staci's earlier post cuts to the heart of the matter:

I am truly against elective abortion but, if I were in charge, I would want to enable victims of rape (proven rape, not "alleged-oops-I-got-drunk-and-woke-up-post-coital" rape) and young incest victims to be allowed to make the choice to abort. The problem arises, however, because then you have to get into proving circumstances and there are many, many gray areas and exceptions.

Unfortunately, for me, I usually end up siding with the "keep abortion legal" folks for the simple reason that making it "illegal, but there are exceptions" would become such a quagmire nothing would ever get accomplished. Add to that the fact that women have been finding ways to abort unwanted pregnancies practically since the dawn of time, well...I'd rather the ones who really need an abortion be able to do so legally, cleanly, and with medical supervision. It's such a complicated issue in my mind.
 

RammerJammer14

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Doesn't matter. We're not questioning the statistics, only the logic underlying certain people's beliefs. Slab is right in that it often demonstrates inconsistency.
It does matter. The original argument was that abortions must be legal so women who become pregnant via rape can get rid of an unwanted, forced pregnancy for emotional reasons. I was just pointing out that such an occurance is rare, so the exception cannot prove the rule (or justify it, in this sense).:)

Re logic:
The logic of their beliefs is arguable. I agree that from a moral perspective, it is inconsistent. A baby is a baby. But I don't think that is what they are saying. I think what they are saying is that, if a new line on abortions could be drawn(into law) and agreed upon, they would be reasonably happy if it was drawn between irresponsible selfish pregnancy and forced pregnancy. That, at least, is how I feel.:)
 

bayoutider

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When we take one life for the conveinience of another, then it is a matter of concern to me. Should our laws make murder legal in any sense, it would be of concern to me. What is taught to our children in our schools is a concern to me.



I dont dole out any consequences. My response was basically in defense of the pro life stance against suggestions from the pro abortion crowd that we are somehow disingenuous if we support abortion when rape is involved or if we own a gun.
First of all I never said I was pro abortion, pro life, left or right of center I gave examples of when I would have to make a hard decision if you have any trouble understanding that read slower.
 

TRUTIDE

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You are being intentionally obtuse.

Why is aborting a fetus conceived by incest or rape not a "senseless killing" under your very own definition?
It is hard to decipher what you want me to say here. You just quoted the reasoning I gave,

I will try to re word it...again.

If the pregancy is caused by rape.
-The mother had no control of her body or the situation.
-The woman is the victim of a horrific sex crime.
-I would not see it as senseless killing if a woman decided to abort the child that she was forced to concieve. She has no responsibility here.

If a pregnancy is caused by irresponsible sex,
-the mother and/or father chose not to use protection.
-the mother and father chose to have sex.
-I do see it as senseless killing to take the life of another just to accomondate a couples poor choices or for the sake of conveinience. The couple is responsible for the child.

Pretty simple is'nt it. It really is common sense reasoning. Taking responsibility for one's own actions. Does this fit within your definition of my values?

I played your game, why do you refuse to play? I will narrow it down for you.

If you had the opportunity to shoot a child and not get caught, would you do it?

Either you support the killing of all children or you are not being consistent. Is this not the same reasoning you use? Is one life more valuable to you than another? Is a 10 yr old more worthy of continuing life than a 1 yr old? Is the 1 yr old more worthy than the life in the womb? No different than your questions except that yours were answered.
 

TRUTIDE

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First of all I never said I was pro abortion, pro life, left or right of center I gave examples of when I would have to make a hard decision if you have any trouble understanding that read slower.
That was not even my response to you. This was...

I do not see how having a pro life stance wires anyone into the acceptance of rape. Rape has been used by the pro abortion crowd for a long time to confuse the issue. A woman being raped is certainly an engregious circumstance and the woman should certainly be allowed to abort. This is entirely different than someone acting irresponsibly with sex and just did not "intend" to get pregnant.
The response you are quoting was in response to someone else and I have made no other references to you whatsoever. Talk about trouble understanding???Where do you all come up with this stuff?
 

bayoutider

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That was not even my response to you. This was...



The response you are quoting was in response to someone else and I have made no other references to you whatsoever. Talk about trouble understanding???Where do you all come up with this stuff?
I was quoted and nowhere did you say you were responding to anyone else. Own up.
 
I

It's On A Slab

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It is hard to decipher what you want me to say here. You just quoted the reasoning I gave,

I will try to re word it...again.

If the pregancy is caused by rape.
-The mother had no control of her body or the situation.
-The woman is the victim of a horrific sex crime.
-I would not see it as senseless killing if a woman decided to abort the child that she was forced to concieve. She has no responsibility here.

If a pregnancy is caused by irresponsible sex,
-the mother and/or father chose not to use protection.
-the mother and father chose to have sex.
-I do see it as senseless killing to take the life of another just to accomondate a couples poor choices or for the sake of conveinience. The couple is responsible for the child.

Pretty simple is'nt it. It really is common sense reasoning. Taking responsibility for one's own actions. Does this fit within your definition of my values?

I played your game, why do you refuse to play? I will narrow it down for you.

If you had the opportunity to shoot a child and not get caught, would you do it?

Either you support the killing of all children or you are not being consistent. Is this not the same reasoning you use? Is one life more valuable to you than another? Is a 10 yr old more worthy of continuing life than a 1 yr old? Is the 1 yr old more worthy than the life in the womb? No different than your questions except that yours were answered.
So, to reiterate your position, the sanctity of human life extends to everyone, then you make exceptions: fetuses conceived by incest or rape.

Why stop at rape and incest? Why not eye color, hair color, race, gender, and a whole host of things a potential being has no choice over when conceived?

What an interesting ethos you embrace.

:eek2:
 
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TRUTIDE

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So, to reiterate your position, the sanctity of human life extends to everyone, then you make exceptions: fetuses conceived by incest or rape.
What an interesting ethos you embrace.

What can I say, unlike the Obama/PP supporters, I have the ability to think for myself. I can see that it is hard for you to understand why I do not follow the company line. One would think that a abortion proponent would welcome compromise. Compromise just defeats the purpose though, does'nt it. Let's just leave it in a state of confusion. This is obviously just a one sided conversation anyway.

Instead trying to define and tear down my values, why don't you work on these folks for a while...NRLC Mission Statement
 

TommyMac

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It's pretty sad to see unborn babies referred to as "potential persons" or "potential beings." I guess it kind of helps to salve the consciences of those who advocate their brutal executions. :mad2:
 

Relayer

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So, to reiterate your position, the sanctity of human life extends to everyone, then you make exceptions: fetuses conceived by incest or rape.

Why stop at rape and incest? Why not eye color, hair color, race, gender, and a whole host of things a potential being has no choice over when conceived?

What an interesting ethos you embrace.

:eek2:
Masterful work! You're convinced that you've cornered him and shown that he is ... (OH NO)... inconsistent!!

OTOH, pro-abortion folk can take pride in the fact, that while they are completely willing to go along and let all pregnancies end in the abortion of the baby, they are consistent, by God!

That is an interesting ethos, as well.
 

Tider@GW_Law

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It's pretty sad to see unborn babies referred to as "potential persons" or "potential beings." I guess it kind of helps to salve the consciences of those who advocate their brutal executions. :mad2:
Please, quit with the drama. Personhood is not black or white. I took an entire graduate course on personhood (beginning and end of life issues). This is one of the blurriest lines in all of ethics. "Potential being" could incorporate anything from implantation, and possibly even before that.

For instance, here is just one well-known list of criteria that a famous theologian believes must be present for somebody to be a "person":

Joseph Fletcher, Episcopalian theologian and bioethicist, argued for a list of fifteen “positive propositions” of personhood. These attributes are:
  • minimum intelligence​
  • self-awareness​
  • self-control​
  • a sense of time​
  • a sense of futurity​
  • a sense of the past​
  • the capability of relating to others​
  • concern for others​
  • communication​
  • control of existence​
  • curiosity​
  • change and changeability​
  • balance of rationality and feeling​
  • idiosyncrasy​
  • neocortical functioning.​
  • Link to random essay
 

Relayer

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Let's not get too carried away with the description here.


Jack, noooo! I'll never let go, Jack!
Since you mentioned it, let's not sanitize it either. Have you never seen pics of aborted babies? Brutal is too nice a word in many cases.
 

tidepws

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It's always nice to read a thread and see not one, but two mods bicker with the same poster. I guess they aren't infallible after all. Go figure...

Oh, and Slabbie, it seems you must allow the other posters to post their pictures of partial-birth abortions. I mean if you allow Crimson CT to post his, the others need a chance of rebuttal. Otherwise, you aren't being consistent.
 

Tide n True

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Oh, and Slabbie, it seems you must allow the other posters to post their pictures of partial-birth abortions. I mean if you allow Crimson CT to post his, the others need a chance of rebuttal. Otherwise, you aren't being consistent.
No...he doesn't have to allow anything; I prefer he not. I have no desire to look at pictures of abortions at any stage. It is a revolting practice, and such pictures don't belong on this board.
 

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