Defining free speech

[TIDE-HSV]

No problem with the delayed response. I work for a living too. Thank you for the clarification.

It's only antisemitism against Soros if the criticism is because he is Jewish.

I have a very close Jewish friend. He called me this weekend to ask if I had seen any signs of antisemitism here in West Tennessee. I told him I don't have any Jewish patients so I had not been exposed.

I checked earlier today to see if there is a synagogue in Jackson, TN. There is but it only has 35 members. I was pretty surprised to learn that Jackson, a town of 60,000+ has such a small Jewish community.

The nationwide Jewish percentage is only 2.4%, so that's not surprising. That's taking into account that NE urban areas have a much higher percentage. When I was at NYU in NYC, I was essentially living in a Jewish world. My law partner for 30+ years is Jewish. I was raised in a pro-Jewish family, particularly my mother. In her case, it was religiously-based. She regarded them as "God's chosen people." My attitude is not so based. I've always just regarded them as other persons. I've never understood antisemitism, really. Still don't, and I've been exposed and related to more Jews than 99% of Southerners...

 

[CrimsonJazz]

The nationwide Jewish percentage is only 2.4%, so that's not surprising. That's taking into account that NE urban areas have a much higher percentage. When I was at NYU in NYC, I was essentially living in a Jewish world. My law partner for 30+ years is Jewish. I was raised in a pro-Jewish family, particularly my mother. In her case, it was religiously-based. She regarded them as "God's chosen people." My attitude is not so based. I've always just regarded them as other persons. I've never understood antisemitism, really. Still don't, and I've been exposed and related to more Jews than 99% of Southerners...

Antisemitism, like all forms of prejudice, is illogical, stupid and mean-spirited. Like you, I don’t understand it. Also like you, I’m a bit of a skeptic on the whole “chosen people” thing, particularly in light of all the crap these people have had to deal with. Every Jewish person I’ve ever known has been a delightful person to know, particularly an esteemed psychiatrist I had the privilege of working with for several years. I miss him. In some ways I’m glad he’s not here to see this happening…..again. That antisemitism train is never late. Sigh….

 

[AWRTR]

I think you broke Selma’s record for post length.

 

[AWRTR]

The nationwide Jewish percentage is only 2.4%, so that's not surprising. That's taking into account that NE urban areas have a much higher percentage. When I was at NYU in NYC, I was essentially living in a Jewish world. My law partner for 30+ years is Jewish. I was raised in a pro-Jewish family, particularly my mother. In her case, it was religiously-based. She regarded them as "God's chosen people." My attitude is not so based. I've always just regarded them as other persons. I've never understood antisemitism, really. Still don't, and I've been exposed and related to more Jews than 99% of Southerners...

My thoughts on Jewish people would be similarly based to your mother’s and yours as well. They are just people with a long history that started in Genesis. We have a very large orthodox community being built in our county. They are relocating from New York State to south Florida. I’m looking forward to them being here. I have several friends working on the project at the engineering level and they love them. They are great to work with by all accounts. I can’t grasp why they are so hated all over the world for thousands of years.

 

[JDCrimson]

I have heard this before but I think its a pretty good definition of freedom [of speech] for society but not government interference...

"Your freedom ends where the other person's nose begins." - Oliver Wendell Holmes, US Supreme Court Justice

 

[Go Bama]

Thank you, @NationalTitles18, for shedding light on this situation. The viral video was taken completely out of context. I knew something didn’t add up, but did not take the time to dig deeper.

I hope all who have called for the resignations of these university presidents will take the time to at least scan this transcript. Hopefully, all will be open minded and recognize that we have been duped.

 

[NationalTitles18]

Thank you, @NationalTitles18, for shedding light on this situation. The viral video was taken completely out of context. I knew something didn’t add up, but did not take the time to dig deeper.

I hope all who have called for the resignations of these university presidents will take the time to at least scan this transcript. Hopefully, all will be open minded and recognize that we have been duped.

The whole thing has been manufactured outrage - manufactured by politicians and their wealthy supporters to cover their own bigoted tracks.

None of those people would condemn the remarks of a president who said there were good neo Nazi white supremacists saying "Jews will not replace us". They have all refused to criticize him.

None of them would condemn the anti-Semitic remarks on the owner of x. Ackman has publicly supported him after the remarks were made.

The same people put up with one of their own blaming Jews for imaginary space lasers that cause wildfires in the West.

Stefanik espouses the great replacement theory advanced by white supremacist groups (and a "soft" version of it advanced by conservative groups for 25+ years). She also supports cutting 1/4 of funding for the OCR, which helps combat antisemitism.

The thing that got my attention right away was Stefanik equating supporting intifada (as a concept/idea) with supporting genocide - not everyone who supports a Palestinian state supports genocide but in her mind they all do.

And as for " from the river to the sea" chant: I don't agree with it, but again it is not directly calling for genocide as claimed (though by definition it is calling for destruction of the state of Israel and replacing it with a Palestinian state and I disagree with that).

The presidents directly condemned antisemitism multiple times, unlike what has been portrayed.

Stefanik asked them if expressing support for intifada (which she falsely claimed is the same as calling for genocide) violates the code of conduct at the presidents' schools.

She already knew that expressing such a political view, in and of itself, cannot legally violate the code of conduct at any school taking federal funds - even at a private institution - due to Constitutional protections on speech. She knew it would take more than a simple comment by someone supporting intifada (which she falsely equates with espousing genocide) to trigger disciplinary measures.

So it made sense to me from the beginning as I watched this unfold that the presidents answered that expressing support for intifada (which Stefanik falsely equates with calling for genocide of all Jewish people everywhere) is protected free speech but that in certain contextual situations it could constitute violations of their schools' codes of conduct.

I also found it rich that Stefanik and other republicans on the panel condemned Harvard for its past anti-Semitism and basically said (paraphrasing) it was built on anti-Semitism when they support policies forbidding schools to discuss US history on such matters and outright deny that the US itself has similar issues and condemn anyone who says otherwise.

 

[Crimson1967]

I’ve never known a lot of Jewish people other than one or two here or there. At least that I know of. Unless your name is Goldstein or something like that, it isn’t obvious to me you are Jewish. Never had a conversation with a Jew regarding anti-Semitism.

So I don’t get anti-Semitism, either. My mother also said the line about God’s chosen people but I don’t really subscribe to that. (If God drops by and tells me who His chosen are, I’ll post it here).

I’ve honestly never heard anyone say they hate Jews or make anti-Semitic remarks. Maybe a few jokes on Jewish stereotypes but none to the point that I’d call them anti-Semites.

So I don’t really get it. There aren’t a lot of them around compared to other groups.

I don’t fully get what’s going on over there. I support them in general but they aren’t blameless. I don’t think supporting Palestine means you hate Jews. I think some of the Palestine support on these campuses is people just trying to be different.

 

[Padreruf]

I've known a number of Jewish rabbis and enjoyed working with them on various issues. I also grew up in a home where racial prejudice of any kind was verboten on religious grounds...that is not how one treats another child of God.

I believe antisemitism is rooted in the Jewish ability to work together and prosper in society. Hard work and support of each other can be threatening to people who are lazy and ignorant. Add in that orthodox and/or Hasidic Jewish communities tend to have a clannish nature and that sets them up for prejudice by those who feel threatened. People on the bottom rungs have need of a scapegoat -- and whether the Germans in pre-WWII or the white supremacists of the 2020's, the result is the same.

We humans are tribal to the core and we will disparage those who are different. I see common elements of this in the treatment of Asian students/people who are high achievers.

Thanks for sharing the testimonies...puts all in the proper context.

 

[92tide]

The whole thing has been manufactured outrage - manufactured by politicians and their wealthy supporters to cover their own bigoted tracks.

None of those people would condemn the remarks of a president who said there were good neo Nazi white supremacists saying "Jews will not replace us". They have all refused to criticize him.

None of them would condemn the anti-Semitic remarks on the owner of x. Ackman has publicly supported him after the remarks were made.

The same people put up with one of their own blaming Jews for imaginary space lasers that cause wildfires in the West.

Stefanik espouses the great replacement theory advanced by white supremacist groups (and a "soft" version of it advanced by conservative groups for 25+ years). She also supports cutting 1/4 of funding for the OCR, which helps combat antisemitism.

The thing that got my attention right away was Stefanik equating supporting intifada (as a concept/idea) with supporting genocide - not everyone who supports a Palestinian state supports genocide but in her mind they all do.

And as for " from the river to the sea" chant: I don't agree with it, but again it is not directly calling for genocide as claimed (though by definition it is calling for destruction of the state of Israel and replacing it with a Palestinian state and I disagree with that).

The presidents directly condemned antisemitism multiple times, unlike what has been portrayed.

Stefanik asked them if expressing support for intifada (which she falsely claimed is the same as calling for genocide) violates the code of conduct at the presidents' schools.

She already knew that expressing such a political view, in and of itself, cannot legally violate the code of conduct at any school taking federal funds - even at a private institution - due to Constitutional protections on speech. She knew it would take more than a simple comment by someone supporting intifada (which she falsely equates with espousing genocide) to trigger disciplinary measures.

So it made sense to me from the beginning as I watched this unfold that the presidents answered that expressing support for intifada (which Stefanik falsely equates with calling for genocide of all Jewish people everywhere) is protected free speech but that in certain contextual situations it could constitute violations of their schools' codes of conduct.

I also found it rich that Stefanik and other republicans on the panel condemned Harvard for its past anti-Semitism and basically said (paraphrasing) it was built on anti-Semitism when they support policies forbidding schools to discuss US history on such matters and outright deny that the US itself has similar issues and condemn anyone who says otherwise.

same stuff, different day

 

[Go Bama]

same stuff, different day

As you have often said , it’s all projection with these people. Now, the GOPers have cost one university president her job and her reputation.

So far the silence on this board is deafening.

 

[92tide]

As you have often said , it’s all projection with these people. Now, the GOPers have cost one university president her job and her reputation.

So far the silence on this board is deafening.

wash, rinse, repeat, and move seamlessly on to the next outrage/grievance

 

[JDCrimson]

I was.going to post a similar comment. I think the oppression through the centuries has formed a solidarity among the Jewish community such they support one another in business and other ways.

The India Indians do this too. If they are a descendant of the aristocracy in India they can apply for a loan from a sovereign fund in India to start businesses in the US. How do you think the Indians seemingly in short came to be to such a large force of ownership in hotels and convenience stores?

I've known a number of Jewish rabbis and enjoyed working with them on various issues. I also grew up in a home where racial prejudice of any kind was verboten on religious grounds...that is not how one treats another child of God.

I believe antisemitism is rooted in the Jewish ability to work together and prosper in society. Hard work and support of each other can be threatening to people who are lazy and ignorant. Add in that orthodox and/or Hasidic Jewish communities tend to have a clannish nature and that sets them up for prejudice by those who feel threatened. People on the bottom rungs have need of a scapegoat -- and whether the Germans in pre-WWII or the white supremacists of the 2020's, the result is the same.

We humans are tribal to the core and we will disparage those who are different. I see common elements of this in the treatment of Asian students/people who are high achievers.

Thanks for sharing the testimonies...puts all in the proper context.

 

[NationalTitles18]

As you have often said , it’s all projection with these people.

Yep. And this was quite the diversion distracting from their own history, the Speaker saying he is blurring the faces of insurrectionists to protect them from the consequences of their behavior on Jan 6, and Trump's legal woes.

Now, the GOPers have cost one university president her job and her reputation.

And that was Stefanik's stated goal at the hearing.

It does help to have rich supporters backing you with their $$$.

I don't know what these presidents are supposed to do to stop protests off or even on their campuses.

It's akin to asking POTUS if he is going to punish protesters in the US or in countries close by because they said things you disagree with, he condemns the speech while supporting free speech rights and saying that where violation of the law occurs there will be consequences and yet he is asked about ongoing cases and when he says he can't talk about individual cases the questioner gets mad(even though talking about an ongoing case is not really advisable and may not be legal), and then people start wanting the President to resign. For what? Supporting the Constitution? Condemning things that were said? Following the law? Answering the question succinctly?

I'll note that much of the media was complicit in this and failed to provide context - to the point of being dishonest in some cases.

 

[92tide]

Yep. And this was quite the diversion distracting from their own history, the Speaker saying he is blurring the faces of insurrectionists to protect them from the consequences of their behavior on Jan 6, and Trump's legal woes.



And that was Stefanik's stated goal at the hearing.

It does help to have rich supporters backing you with their $$$.

I don't know what these presidents are supposed to do to stop protests off or even on their campuses.

It's akin to asking POTUS if he is going to punish protesters in the US or in countries close by because they said things you disagree with, he condemns the speech while supporting free speech rights and saying that where violation of the law occurs there will be consequences and yet he is asked about ongoing cases and when he says he can't talk about individual cases the questioner gets mad(even though talking about an ongoing case is not really advisable and may not be legal), and then people start wanting the President to resign. For what? Supporting the Constitution? Condemning things that were said? Following the law? Answering the question succinctly?

I'll note that much of the media was complicit in this and failed to provide context - to the point of being dishonest in some cases.

i guess this is what is meant by woke campus cancel culture being out of control

 

[Its On A Slab]

I'd say as soon as she was unable, in real time, to answer the question I'd know we had chosen the wrong person to lead the university. It was such a simple question about something that shouldn't ever require any 'context', it's mind-boggling that a uni would consider this person the ideal to lead them.

But you have to think - was there any answer that would have been acceptable to that fake-outraged GQP politician? She kept equating "intifada"(which means "resistance") with genocide. While there are those that do that, she wanted to paint the broadbrush that academia was pushing this agenda. Which is an old saw with the extreme fringe that has taken control of the Republican Party

She might as well have been screaming, "Have you BEAT your kids lately!!"

And there are those opposed to Israeli occupation that are not genocidal idiots. This reminds me of the way Republicans painted anyone against the Iraq War as traitors and coddlers of terrorists.

 

[JDCrimson]

Again, these presidents were not prepared for what this hearing's motive was. As academics usually do they tried to answer the questions asked rather than deliver the message they wanted to communicate. The Republicans duped them and liberals keep falling for it over and over and over...

The Democrats are in the ring but they haven't recognized they are in a fight.

But you have to think - was there any answer that would have been acceptable to that fake-outraged GQP politician? She kept equating "intifada"(which means "resistance") with genocide. While there are those that do that, she wanted to paint the broadbrush that academia was pushing this agenda. Which is an old saw with the extreme fringe that has taken control of the Republican Party

She might as well have been screaming, "Have you BEAT your kids lately!!"

And there are those opposed to Israeli occupation that are not genocidal idiots. This reminds me of the way Republicans painted anyone against the Iraq War as traitors and coddlers of terrorists.

 

[crimsonaudio]

But you have to think - was there any answer that would have been acceptable to that fake-outraged GQP politician? She kept equating "intifada"(which means "resistance") with genocide. While there are those that do that, she wanted to paint the broadbrush that academia was pushing this agenda. Which is an old saw with the extreme fringe that has taken control of the Republican Party

She might as well have been screaming, "Have you BEAT your kids lately!!"

And there are those opposed to Israeli occupation that are not genocidal idiots. This reminds me of the way Republicans painted anyone against the Iraq War as traitors and coddlers of terrorists.

They were literally (repeatedly) asked the question "is calling for the genocide of Jews against the codes of conduct" at their schools.

If you want to make excuses for the schools or their presidents, feel free to to twist yourself into a pretzel doing so. It's literally a yes or no answer. I understand soundbite gotchas, but this one was easy and all three failed miserably.

ETA: if they were asked about whether it was acceptable for students to be calling for the subjugation / re-enslavement of people of color and answered similarly there would be zero discussion, they would have been fired before they left the capitol. Yet calling for the absolute destruction of a people is contextual, even debatable? Get that garbage out of here.

 

[Padreruf]

I was.going to post a similar comment. I think the oppression through the centuries has formed a solidarity among the Jewish community such they support one another in business and other ways.

The India Indians do this too. If they are a descendant of the aristocracy in India they can apply for a loan from a sovereign fund in India to start businesses in the US. How do you think the Indians seemingly in short came to be to such a large force of ownership in hotels and convenience stores?

The same goes for medical school places....at one time India paid schools to hold spots. Not sure if that happens today.

 

[Go Bama]

They were literally (repeatedly) asked the question "is calling for the genocide of Jews against the codes of conduct" at their schools.

If you want to make excuses for the schools or their presidents, feel free to to twist yourself into a pretzel doing so. It's literally a yes or no answer. I understand soundbite gotchas, but this one was easy and all three failed miserably.

ETA: if they were asked about whether it was acceptable for students to be calling for the subjugation / re-enslavement of people of color and answered similarly there would be zero discussion, they would have been fired before they left the capitol. Yet calling for the absolute destruction of a people is contextual, even debatable? Get that garbage out of here.

Man, I've got to ask, did you read the testimony NT18 posted? If you did, this is an extremely disturbing post.